Sociopaths drag their families into the con
PDF Sociopaths will manipulate anyone. Let me repeat that. Sociopaths will manipulate absolutely anyone, including mom, dad, brothers, sisters—anyone. One way that this happens is the sociopath gets his or her family—knowingly or not—to participate in the victimization of the target.
Lovefraud received an e-mail from Rod in Nebraska. Rod’s daughter had been targeted by a sociopath. In his e-mail, he wrote the following:
One thing that I do believe should be approached about a sociopath is his ability not only to control his victim, but also his family. The sociopath works his family to the extent that he manipulates his immediate family into believing that none of his problems in life are his fault and consequently the blame falls on the one he wooed into a relationship. In this manner he deliberately cons his family into enabling him in his behavior. Oh, poor guy, the world is against him, he has a seizure disorder and has the gout. Thus concluding my opinion that he controls his universe and his family’s.
Family ties
There are parents who continually bail out their sociopathic children—even as grown adults. There are family members who continually acquiesce to the sociopath’s demands, maybe just to maintain the peace.
Sometimes the families are just as clueless as everyone else. They don’t understand the sociopath’s behavior, but they feel family members are obligated take care of each other. They believe the sociopath when he or she blames the victim for whatever is going wrong.
Other times, the family members are sociopathic themselves—the risk of developing this personality disorder is genetic. So they see absolutely nothing wrong with predatory behavior.
So to escape, the victim must often stand up to not only the sociopath—which is difficult enough—but the sociopath’s entire family as well.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
geminigirl says:
Hi, Darlings!! Gem is backkk!!! I hada brilliant 3 week holiday in Scotland, just home today after a horrendous long journey, which I did over 2 days. Glasgow,/Dubai, Dubai, Sydney. left Glasgow, in cold and wet, got back to Sydney, just the same! My darling husband met me OK at the Int. Airport. Im haveing a second wind, catching up with washing, etc.This Holiday, while v. enjoyable, has also helped me to let go, maybe of EVERYTHING. I visited the people who now livein the hous e Iwas born and brought up in. very surreal, but it helped me to close another chapter. Also saw old school pals, even my old guide captain, now 84! Im now more determined than ever to look forward, with a clear vision, determination, no regrets, no more false guilt, put aside those people who
dont care for me and love me as i DESERVE, AND CONCENTRATE ON THOSE WHO GIVE BACK SOME AFFECTION.Such as Roya and Abbas.Oxy, the book arrived,a nd after Ive read it, Ill forward it to you.I missed all you great guys and gals. Creampuff, yes, I got your message thru Donna, and Im happy to let you have my email, also Outlier, and anyone else who wishes it from LF,{trolls excepted!] Lots of Love, your mama Gem.XXXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
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OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
Glad you are back safely! I’m envious of your trip to Scotland!@ I’ve always wanted to go there and never able! Maybe I will be fore I am too old to travel, for now though, just have to hold on to my money and see what happens in the coming parole hearing for P-son.
Our summer is ramping up as your fall is so hot and humid here! I’m anxious to read the book! I saw a televison news show on a P whose adult son killed him here in US in Texas and the son got 20 years in prison for 2nd degree murder. I know that killing them off is not a thing people should be generally allowed to do. I think this son had trauma bond (Stockholm syndrome) and the prosecution kept asking him “Why didn’t you just leave?” His answer was “I don’t know, I just thought it would get better,” which I think many of us can relate to.
I’m just glad that your trip went well for you and yhou put some ghosts to rest! Welcome back!!!
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lostingrief says:
hey gem!
i’m glad you had a great trip. i, too, have always wanted to travel to scotland, and perhaps still will!
good to see you.
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ErinBrock says:
Gem:
Welcome home darlen……I am glad your trip was so special, creating alot of new memories and letting go of others….
Good for you for doing this for yourself!!!!!
Turning a new leaf……
XXOO
EB
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shabbychic says:
gem, hi there! Your trip sounds wonderful,
so glad you found some healing in Scotland.
We missed you.
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ErinBrock says:
This is the first article on forgiveness that addresses what if they are still doing the same behaviors…….
From mayo Clinic
http://www.mayoclinic.com/heal.....ss/mh00131
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OxDrover says:
Dear ErinB,
GREAT LINK!!!! READ IT EVERYONE!!!!Thank you for that link!!! That has been the “sermonette” I have been trying to preach here at LF for a LONG TIME. It is so well worded–gosh I wish I could write so sweetly! But that’s what “forgiveness” is all about, not about excusing their abuse or whatever they did. It isn’t about THEM, it is about HEALING US—and as much as I wanted to hang on to the bitterness as much as I wanted to hang on to the anger and revenge I realized it was KILLING ME.
Who ever said bitterness is like drinking poison and wanting the OTHER PERSON TO DIE! It eats us alive and THEY COULD CARE LESS! Them not caring that we hate them or wish they would die is the worst part I think, cause WE SURE CARED about them. Maybe ErinB there’ll be a shark attack this week in the gulf, maybe the oil will drive them bonkers and they’ll crawl to his apartment! LOL
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ErinBrock says:
Apartment…..NO CHANCE…..he’s conning a rich couple, she’s got her 3rd round of Breast Cancer…..playing nursemaid and good guy…….conning them for whatever he is wanting from them……money, status, women, ego boost, a place to live, a car to drive…….someone to keep in touch with him when he’s incarcerated…..one never knows…
No apartment….it’s a house on a golf course in Palm Beach.
It does have a lake right outside……so maybe it’s aligator infested and it won’t be a shark afterall!!!!
I won’t protest.
Yes…..I’m obvioulsy not quite ready to forgive……maybe after the alligator or shark gets him, I can forgive.
I did like this article…..I need to explore it further.
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OxDrover says:
Dear EB,
I have to WORK on the forgiveness part on a continual basis, I admit. It is easy to stir up that anger if you FEED IT. Like the old myth about the two wolves inside us, the one that WINS is the one we feed.
Right now I am working on feeding my calm and peaceful wolf, and starving the bad wolf but it hasn’t died of starvation yet, and sometimes when something happens out of the blue, it throws the darned bad wolf a STEAK!
What happened about that other house you were trying to close on? I remember you talking about some heating problem with it that was fixed with “putty” and duct tape or something.
Hot and humid here today, still haven’t broken down yet and turned on the AC managing okay with the attic fan and ceiling fans. Washing clothes and will hang out after the sun goes behind the trees. Having thunder storms all around but doesn’t look like will here but weather is crazy like last year! I’m blaming it on The BP oil spill—-CAN YOU BELIEVE WHAT A BUNCH OF CORPORATE PSYCHOPATHS????
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flowerpower says:
Thanks EB and Ox for the link and posts on this. I struggle constantly with anger over the continued injustice in our situation.
One part struck me. I feel that I must stay NC in public. This appears to be nonforgiveness. I think it is consequences for his behavior.
any thought?
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freemama says:
Oh, man – forgiveness is a tough topic for me. I think it’s hard for any person who has the slightest amount of compassion to extend it to someone who so clearly doesn’t. It isn’t a level playing field at all… we’re not even playing the same sport! I must have forgiven my sociopath hundreds of times, and begged for HIS forgiveness even more. I didn’t even do anything! Looking back, I remember apologizing for thinking he was cheating on me, and he WAS! He just sat there and let me do it… let me feel all the remorse and shame for doubting him and his love. Sickening. How do you forgive that?
I guess it’s something you have to do within yourself. I think I might have made his condition worse by offering so many excuses and apologies for what were really HIS hurtful actions (not that I’m excusing them!).
It’s funny… one of the last things I said to him before I got the restraining order was that I would forgive him one day, but he would actually have to apologize. I don’t even know why I said it… it just came out. Deep down, I really thought things were going to end badly (i.e., he would kill me), and at least I wanted to have peace with myself if that were to happen, and maybe offer him peace if he were to succeed in destroying me and find himself seriously regretting it 50 years from now or whenever he decides to get a conscience. Isn’t that bizarre?
I’m not as resentful as I once was, but I think that’s because I’m still in it and haven’t really seen much improve in my life now that he’s gone. I am terrified to even meet a man, much less date. I isolate a lot, and I know it’s not good, but I think I’m getting a lot out of researching and such online. I am far more educated about him now then I was a year ago, that’s for sure. I get so angry when people tell me, “He’s just a philanderer… you’re overreacting. ALL men cheat.” If that was ALL he did, I totally could’ve handled that. Folks just don’t know.
FP – I think “consequences for his behavior” is soooo right on. If it works for a 3 year old, it pretty much works for him! That’s my ex’s maturity level.
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Wini says:
freemama, yes, forgiveness is tricky. Most days I forgive them (yes, I had a double whammy of deceit … actually, more than double, but, I have to remember to stop counting) and other days the anger or frustration (I’m not sure which it is) just flushes my face. Then I have to compartmentalize the situation and tuck it in a nice place in the back of my mind or heart. The only wisdom that brings my compassion in full gear is to know, none of our Spaths can love, have compassion for others, cry, experience any joy, have that mental connection with another, experience that feeling that overwhelms your heart just hearing that significant other’s heartbeat next to you and knowing everything is calm and serene in the world. Now, I would call that sad for none of them will ever experience it.
Peace to your heart and soul as you heal.
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ErinBrock says:
OXY:
The other house was a rental unit I owned (in title only) with my inlaws…..I had to scramble RIGHT after the divorce to get that transfered into my name only…..I did it!
The other son (of MIL) had power of attorney and he was suspected of using this POA to sign his dead fathers and mothers ‘share’ over to ex spath…..
I got wind of this and was able to head it off and use my POA to get er done!!!
Just in the nick oftime…..got it recorded.
Not a word since.
They never contributed a dime, it was never their intent to own the property, and they NEVER had a dime invested. I couldn’t qualify for loan alone at that time 20 plus years ago…..
I had all records, tax documentations, checks, yadayada…..BUT….I didn’t want to be on the end of having to prove it was my property……and not being able to rent it in the meantime, as that is a big chunk of my income.
Anyways…..got the death cert. from FIL death state, got it transfered, and got it placed in sole my name in a week.
Poof!
As I left the county recorders office, my attorney called me to say she had a new deed written up……I told her DONE! I couldn’t wait.
Spaths plan was to move into it and prevent me from this income……COUNTER CONTROLLED THAT!
Anyways…..at some point I will get to forgiveness stage…..
I think it may come in time……but wounds are opened by stressors all the time through kids and legal deals…..and I obviously am not ready.
I also get scared that if I come to forgiveness and he contacts me…..(after TPO is up)….then I may fall prey again (weakness)……
I must stick with my original notion of…..I will NEVER speak to him again in my life!!!!
If we could talk…..we’d still be married…..
Well…maybe not.
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OxDrover says:
Dear EB, forgiveness does NOT MEAN THAT YOU GIVE OVER THE POWER TO ‘RECONNECT” in any way, it just means that you are not filled with bitterness. Actually, I think you may be further along toward forgiving than you may even be aware of. You are not nearly as caustic as you were a couple of yrs ago. Your posts are different any way it seems to me.
I got rid of my rental property right before the RE crash and boy was that a relief, but now with interest so low there’s no income at all from the money, but they needed workk and I sold them at the top of the RE market so I don’t guess I should second guess my decision to sell.
Glad you got it in your name before they screwed you over! I can’t imagine putting anything in anyone else’s name ever again. I guess I am fortunate that our trust can’t be disolved. I can’t sell the house til I am totally in control of the trust but at least I can’t be screwed out of it.
Had tinderloin sandwiches tonight out of the last of the meat, and have enough for another night or two, son D is leaving for his summer job this week so will last til he goes and then I am back on the “starvation” diet. (Not really, just a healthy one!) Haven’t gained any more wt. but haven’t lost any more either, so need to lose another 10-15 pounds before I hit the wall again. Maybe I can do that while he is gone. Live on turkey salads. YUM!!!!
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freemama says:
Wow – you just clued me in on one of the tricks he tried to pull!
He stopped paying our mortgage (which was in his name, though we’re both on the title) in August of 2009, 6 months after he moved out. He would not give me permission to even speak to the bank, though I asked dozens of times. I couldn’t even pay if I wanted to. He claimed he was trying to get the mortgage “restructured”, but after 5 months of no news, I decided to move out (plus he moved into a houseshare with 2 women a block away. NOT pleasant). His lawyer badgered me constantly to sign a quit claim, trying to sell it like it was some great thing and I would be cleared of liability. Something in me said no… let it go into foreclosure. That place was my dream home. I spent thousands of dollars trying to make it a nice home for my ds, and he just threw it away. No way was I going to let him have it.
Now I see his game was to rent it out and pocket the earnings! It’s been sitting empty all these months. Must drive him nuts. I still have no idea what’s going to happen to it. My old neighbor keeps calling and complaining about it… asking me to go over and take care of the yard. He lives a block away! Let him deal with it! Of course she’s afraid to call him.
What a JERK! At least his credit will be shot after all of this. I’m very glad our broker suggested we’d get a better rate if he signed it on his own!
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ErinBrock says:
Caustic….ROTFLMAO!!!
I know it doesn’t give up my power to do anything….and it’s for me…..
But I think it has something to do with keeping my defense mech . up so when he does reappear…..I’m not blindsided…..
Letting my guard down…..whatever….
I think every day is another step closer to a better day!!!
CAUSTIC???? LOL….I’m cracking up……
I came to LF right in the height of my battle….war zone….passion kick ass attitude…..wanting him strung out by his hairless balls with a ice pick up his infamous anus.
I think, just like all the other steps…..it will just sneak up on me one day…..and then I’ll realize it….
But, so far….it hasn’t snuck up on me…..or at least I don’t feel it yet!
Mmmmmm tenderloin sandwiches…mmmmmm…..NO canned peas though!!!
I made a great purchase, back in the day….it’s been a great investment and no complaints with a $200 monthly mortgage. And at least I will always have a place if I lose this house……
I remember for years spath would demand I sell it……THANK god I always said no way!!! If I would have sold it he would have got 1/2 the money……yeah….hindsight…
But looking at it…..he wanted me to liquidate everything……he had a long range plan with his drug money….to leave.
Good for you for selling at the height of the market!!!!!
CAUSTIC!?!?!?!?! hahahahahahaha
Did I spit that much venom? – don’t answer that!
XXOO
EB
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flowerpower says:
EB,Oxy-yall been on here a couple of years? Thanks so much for staying with it and giving the rest of us the benefit of your wisdom!
EB,Caustic? I needed a little of your acid last year…after being beaten down by the monster for 15 years, I was a wimp! I finally got my voice and will never take anything off of him again..
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ErinBrock says:
yeah……I’m still laughing…..CAUSTIC!
I think i’m about a year and a half in on LF. I don’t quite remember…..I lurked for a long time before posting, taking it all in.
I’m gonna have to go back and review…….to remind myself of how far I’ve come…..
It’s good to have a measurement.
I think a big part of the battle is us…..we need to find our balls and expand them……we need to finally take control and drive the boat! Pull on our inner sociopath, learn about our spaths and use all the shiat they pulled on us……back at them…….but in a way which benefits us. You can’t go through a divorce with a sociopath playing by the nice rules…..gotta learn the game and play it!
I just gotta keep my sense of humor…..I think that’s the trick!
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OxDrover says:
Dear EB ,
Sugar I’m glad I made your day!!! Glad you can still garuff and laugh about it all. Yea, I think I’ve been here 2 1/2 years, sheesh time goes so fast. I think I bought the RV and RAN in June of 2007, I remember it is the 9th of June but not the YEAR! What a crazy way to remember (or NOT) things!
I know I was on one of Sam Vaknin’s MSMN sites which turned out to be as abusive as he is, and then I discovered LF and felt like I had arrived HOME!!! That feeling only got better the longer I was here. I would sit at the table in the RV and post on here with tears streaming down my face for hours and hours, then go to bed and read my Bible and cry and cry. I was spending hours trying to get my credit cards straight after the TH-p had charged all this stuff on them and he had taken control of my cell phone account and run up the bills. There was so much going on I was like a whirling dervish going round and round until I got so dizzy I would almost pass out trying to figure what to do or which direction to run in.
Gosh those were “the days” of the CRAZY MAKING, the feeling alone, losing 3 of my pets that I had had for years in 6 months’ time, all by death, moving away from my home, being D&D’d by everyone but son D. Then, getting the Rocky mountain spotted fever and being so sick I could barely walk.
My summer was one disaster after another! The stress level was so high I am amazed I lived through it, but you know, in a way all that seems like a “movie I saw once” but not like it happened to ME. I can remember,. visualize it all, but the stress, the emotions and the pain are not associated with the memories any more. IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE. It is just something that isn’t “real” any more, not scary like it was. Just something I saw or read about once.
I think that helps in “forgiving” too, EB..I can remember how scared, how mad,, how hurt, how raw I was then but it is like trying to remember labor pains, you can recall but you can’t truly “remember” how it FELT. I can empathize more with someone in labor than someone who had never felt it, but I can’t go back and FEEL that pain any more. It is behind me now. I’m happy now, and I think it has just sneaked up on me.
Doesn’t mean I won’t be triggered tomorrow and fall apart, but I’m not even afraid of that any more! I KNOW I CAN HANDLE IT. I can handle ANYTHING now! I could have then but I didn’t realize it.l NOW I DO. I know cause I proved to myself that I could, cause I DID IT!!!
You did too, EB, and all the times we have given support to each other, we have supported ourselves more. That’s what it is about I think! By helping each other we get stronger our selves.
LOL I’m glad you didn’t boink me for saying you were “caustic” but that was the nicest word I could thinkk of! LOL ROTFLMAO
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ErinBrock says:
I agree…..in offering others support….it helps us too!
It’s like hearing yourself talk……
Learning through others……and keeping on the healing journey.
I was thinking about the fear last night……knowing I can make it through anything, but it is that damn gut yuck feeling that it so sucky……that’s what I feltlast night….it was a reminder of those years of worry and fear of everything…..
Last night I was worrying about my health again….and finances again….(the house)…..all things i’m not totally incontrol of.
It is an evolution of US…..
No skillets for you……that would be wayyyyy toooo CAUSTIC!!!
LOL!!!!!!
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Buttons says:
EB, I think the assistance that I get from the people who are in the throes of ridding themselves from the parasites serves to remind me that I should be grateful for every day that I spent without an spath in my life. Whether it’s a former friend, an ex, a former business partner – each day that takes me further from an spath is a day to learn and heal.
For those of you who feel lost, desperate, and crazy – I felt all of those things, as well. Most of what you’re experiencing has been mentioned by one member or another through the volumes of these articles and threads. You are NOT alone, you are NOT hopeless, and there IS a world beyond the one that the spath has constructed.
Take heart and know that everything that you’re experiencing is okay – the fear, the hypervigilance, the waffling, etc….it’s all part and parcel of spath living. It will begin to dissipate when you take your strong steps down your individual healing paths. Little-by-little, the insanity will not only begin to make sense, but the grieving process can begin for what the spaths SHOULD have been. We all go through this and it’s evidenced by threads and posts that go back a few years!
Brightest blessings to you all, and thank you for your trust in sharing your experiences and for helping me to continue down my healing path.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
oxy – your 11:15 post to Erin is very moving for me. i am still living in that whirlwind or things falling apart and trying to pick myself up everytime *I* fall apart. sage experience. thanks for sharing.
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Outlier says:
I only have energy to respond to one thing: ErinBrock:
Why are you giving your family power over you and continuing to live with your abuser? Why is your extended family involved with your psychiatric care? A therapist can not discuss YOUR case with anyone without consent?
I’m sorry this doesn’t make sense at all. I live with an elder narcissist, whose disorder (now I understand) is to a certain extent under control. It isn’t not until he dies the abuse is truly over. I protect them from 2 sociopaths. There’s talk of relocation, which makes sense for a number of reasons.
How am I “giving power” to my family precisely?
I don’t have extended family involved with any “psychiatric care”. Where did you get this from?
My therapist is known only to me. My family know nothing of my counselling. My counsellor doesnt know my family. Where did I write they are involved?!
edit ErinB I know what’s happened! My fault entirely. I will explain my earlier posts carefully later this evening. I know how you misunderstood my incoherent post.. – Outlier.
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OxDrover says:
Dear One_step,
Another thing that is part of that INSANE STAGE of everything going wrong all at once is that we aren’t able to focus enough to prioritize which thing to focus on. So we focus on “the fact our shoes don’t match color” when we should be focusing on “RUNNING from the danger.” Then when we get our shoes the same color, they don’t match our dress, and we focus on that, and when that is fixed,. we…… you get the idea. We are focusing on the TRIVIAL things, and maybe blaming HIM because he took the suitcase that took our matching shoes and dress, when the point is that we should RUN NAKED IF WE HAVE TO, RUNNNNNNN!!!!
I resisted leaving my home for months—-I tried to resort to the law and truth….I should have RUN.
I resisted abandoning that cell phone account he had control of because I’d had that number for 10 years…I eventually abandoned it anyway.
I resisted going to the doctor for two months as I got more and more sick…”blaming it on stress” until I nearly died. I was focusing on the cell phone bill, didn’t have time to go to the doctor. Then had to spend months recovering.
And on and on and on, focusing on all kinds of minor, unimportant things while the world blew apart around me.
The important part was my LIFE, not the cell number I used or where I lived or what happened to my house or my possessions.
I also focused on ways to try to convince my egg donor of the truth, to convince and save my son C….all futile things. I should have quit worrying about SAVING SOMEONE ELSE and focused on SAVING MY OWN LIFE.
Now, my attitude is, if I have an hour in which to prepare to run, I can get out of here with the RV and my dogs and what is already loaded on to the RV, AND NEVER LOOK BACK, if I don’t have the hour, I will leave with what I am WEARING and NOTHING else, and NEVER look back.
I have learned to prioritize what is really important against what is not the least bit important.
Here are some things I think about as being important or not:
Revenge—not important, takes up too much trouble to plan and implement. Besides, the Bible says that “vengence is mine saith the Lord” so I can let Him take care of that.
ALL my STUFF: This can be separated into catagories of Monetarily valuable, useful, sentimental and decorative.
The last two catagories are totally expendable, you can live without them entirely and not really have a problem without them. Useful stuff in some measure is necessary but can be replaced–dishes, blankets, car, etc. so you can leave them behind if you have to and replace them with the value of monetarily valuable items, which are what I protect the most as they are generally kept in a bank or safe where they can be grabbed or gotten to later and consists of money, jewelry, bonds stocks etc. that can be traded for USEFUL stuff which is all we really need.
Plus, I am willing to “down size” in the amount and quality of “useful stuff” if I have to. That may mean living in a DV shelter instead of my 4 bedroom home, or two sets of clothing from the Goodwill instead of the clothing I have (which is still mostly from goodwill, but I am a thrifty shopper!) and a $1000 car instead of the $5,000 one(s) I drive, but the point is that getting out with the important things—our lives and the lives of our kids is ***THE*** MOST IMPORTANT THING.
And we will not see the most important thing when we are distracted by emotional CHAOS and TURMOIL and focvusing on the 110 “little things” which keep us from seeing the ONE big thing. We literally cannot see the FOREST for lthe TREES being in the way!
ONLY NOW am I able to disengage from the things that are NOT importasnt and to put down the chaos in my mind and concentrate on the priority of taking care of me.
One, I haven’t said much about it, because you haven’t asked me but I am going to hazard a suggestion, that you QUIT thinking about OUTING your psychopath and REALLY go NO CONTACT—and that means emotionally and physicalloy and informationally NC and FOCUS ON YOURSELF and the problems that YOU have that need to be worked on. I think as long as you are using your energy (whch is a finite thing) to out her, you are using your resources to “change shoes” when you need to be RUNNING! You can Boink me if this advice offends you, but you know it is given from the heart! (((Hugs)))))
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bluejay says:
OxDrover,
As always, your posts are helpful (I read your most recent one). I had an upsetting day yesterday due to my h-spath dropping a bomb on me, rattling me. Last week, his youngest brother and wife (who are happily married and open to discussing the family dynamics) dropped by my house unannounced (in an effort to find the spath – they couldn’t locate him at his rental house) so we spent time talking, finding out that what I have figured out on my own is on target. History is repeating itself, the h-spath is like his father (in how he treats the wife) and I am living out my mother-in-law’s history. Unlike my mother-in-law, I am not staying with the crazy one, not liking his character at all. I am sick of being in this nightmare. Out of all the siblings, he seems to be the only one who is a spath. I found out that these relatives knew of misdeeds (committed by the h-spath) before I married him, upsetting me. I plainly said, “I wish someone would have warned me about him because I wouldn’t have married him, sparing me a lot of pain” to which my sister-in-law (with a smile on her face) said, “but you would have wanted to fix him.” I disagree. If I knew of some of the transgressions, I would have thought twice about getting too close to him. Live and learn, I suppose. I guess they’re figuring out more-and-more about him themselves. It’s all too depressing, literally.
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OxDrover says:
Derar Bluejay,
Many times good people who know bad things about our Ps don’t warn us, and sometimes they do warn us and We don’t listen. It is a toss up but frankly doesn’t matter NOW. It is the past. I do advise you though unless these relatives are TOTALLY NC with your X be careful what you say to them as many times they will “accidently” or on purpose TELL HIM and pith him off.
I LEARNED THE HARD WAY never to tell ANYONE anything that could bite me in the ass—IT ALWAYS DID no matter how much I thought these people were on my side or saw the truth.
It is better to LISTEN to these people rather than TALK and sometimes they are actually sent as trojan horses to feel you out and get information for the P. While they are in your presence they may pretend to understand what he did to you.
I hope I haven’t burst your bubble, but WATCH out for their family and friends until it is ALL OVER but even then be cautious. It’s possible they are up front and honest with you, but sometimes “blood relatives” can do you in. Ask Witsend, and EB, and others here who have had my same experience.
Sometimes even YOUR relatives can be on their sides,, so CAREFUL! ((((hugs))))
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Buttons says:
{{{{{Bluejay}}}}} Please, dear heart – if someone had “told” you about the spath, would you have taken their warnings seriously, or would you have blown them off as someone who was trying to interfere?
OxD has it spot-on. Listen. Listen even when the words are screaming to get out. Sometimes, they’re genuinely concerned, and other times, some of these people are, indeed, in the web of deciet, as well.
Brightest blessings, Bluejay.
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sherry winter says:
My Spath’s mother warned me. His sister-in-law warned me. His best friend warned me. And his Ex warned me. I wrote them all off. If I had heard from them in the first couple of months, I would have listened… but I didn’t meet any of them until 9 months and a divorce after he had spun his web of lies. By then, it was too late.
Because of that, I don’t take it too hard that those I watch setting themselves up for a fall of one kind or another by trusting him, are as angry as I was at them, when I try to warn them.
I did go back after I found out about hidden girlfriend #4, and call his ex to thank her for TRYING to warn me, even if I wouldn’t listen. I don’t really expect that from any of the woman I have warned. Most just take his lies of WHY they have to break up at face value, and move on. Unfortunately for me, some of the breakups where put down to my meddling… though I supose I should be proud of it, if it were only true!
Still, I do not expect to EVER get a THANK YOU, like I gave to his ex. Most people are NOT like me. Most people would NOT have held on for almost 2 yrs after I knew it was over. Most poeple wouldn’t spend another 2 yrs of their life, looking for the TRUTH, that belonged where his lies had been placed. Most people, are not me… and so most people would never even think to thank me for putting my neck on the line to warn them.
Pearls before swine, and there was I time I WAS that thick headed pig, refusing to listen to those around me instead of his lies…. and refusing to listen to my own, still small voice.
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OxDrover says:
Sherry winter, darlin, I didn’t listen the times I WAS warned! So if I can reasonably warn someone I will, but don’t really expect them to listen to me about it and that is okay. I’m not going to pound my head into the wall or act crazy—if people want or are able to learn from what I saw great, if not, great too. I did the best I could.
It is just like here on LF if you give someone advice, and they keep replying, “You’re right, except I can’t because…” and then they ask for more advice and everyone tells them something and they keep comingn back with “yes, but I can’t because….x, y, or z” you eventually realize that they have no intention at THIS TIME of taking any advice about DOING something about their situation. But, maybe at some time they WILL when THEY get ready to do it.
Sort of like dealing with a person who is into drugs or alcohol, but can “stop any time I want to” but shows up time after time drunk, but you know you are wasting your breath when you tell them to go to AA or quit drinking, because they are going to find some4 EXCUSE not to go to AA or therapy or rehab or to stop drinking…but they sure want to tell you all about what a hard life they have—so eventually you quit responding to them or giving advice because you know they aren’t going to DO anything productive toward fixing their problems. Maybe some time later they will, but in the meantime, you can save your breath and not be upset because we are NOT responsible for others, they are responsible for themselves….as much as we would like to see someone stop self-destructive behavior, until THEY recognize that their behavior is self destructive, unhealthy, etc. all our warnings or teachings or advice is wasted.
The old deal about trying to teach a pig to sing, it “Pithes off the pig and frustrates you!” LOL (((Hugs))))
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firefly says:
I registered over a year ago, and read your posts each week, not even sure If I ever introduced myself (and had to reset my password, this evening because I forgot the thing). I have two sociopathic exes, and they were (still are) friends, I had no clue until I finally hired a PI to confirm, many moons ago
I am totally NC with both, and when the court forces me to “write” or “say” something, it is very short and to the point and go on with my day.
Ox, I just read your post on “they lie” …yes. When either of my spaths starts to move his lips, I say over and over to myself, “Liar.”
On the “why wasn’t I warned” posts. First, I don’t warn anyone about my spaths, not worth it for me (retaliation is high with a spath); second, would a new woman really listen to bad words about the charming prince? Not a chance.
My family *adores* both spaths who were stealth in how they won over my family with the lies (about me) and their tears (fear of being found out).
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Hopeforjoy says:
Oxy,
What you said here in this post, feels like me. You all have given me advice and I offer a lot of “buts”. I have the ball rolling in regards to filing divorce and now am prepared to leave if he continues to dig in. Maybe I’m a bit narcissistic, relating everything to my situation. Sorry. Sorry.
I truely wish you were right here and I could talk with you and understand why I have so many ‘but’s’. I just read your post about focusing on matching shoes and clothes. Like putting your focus on the things we can control so we don’t have to think about the rest.
Every single f**ing day is a challenge. But I have faith it will get better. It’s got to. I think I would take in someone who is needy but it’s me who is needy.
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firefly says:
Hopeforjoy,
Every day can be a challenge! And the sooner you are able to leave, the sooner you can be safe. Being in a safe place is when you can begin the healing process.
The getting better, comes with feeling safe, and being in a safe (sane) environment.
As long as you are under the same roof or have contact, he will continue to “dig in.”
Does this make sense?
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Hopeforjoy says:
Dear Firefly,
Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Safety and peace are what I want the most. It will help to see my therapist tomorrow. Sometimes I don’t think they totally get it. She help me see that he is toxic but can remain conservative in her advice. Kind of like they don’t want to say too much because of a lawsuit.
Thanks for the words of wisdom, firefly. I need to stop obsessing.
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firefly says:
Okay, Hopeforjoy – then envision yourself in that safe and peaceful place, wherever it may be.
Obsessing? Is this what your H says to you/about you?
Many therapists don’t “get it.” Just go to vent in the safety of the therapeutic alliance, if for nothing else. I don’t know about the advice part of therapy, I work in that field now and personally, I don’t give advice; rather, listen, validate, challenge some reasoning, and act as a cheerleader of sorts.
To be more clear (about me), my MH position is not with survivors of spaths; rather, in a related psych. trauma field.
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GettingIt says:
Dear HopeforJoy,
Therapy should provide you with a supportive environment where you hear your thoughts and your own feelings come through to you. If you can do it independently, great, but best if there is an “objective” sounding board. The sounding board will cease to be objective the moment he/ she (therapist) will give you an advise you choose not to follow. So, it’s common to not give advise, but instead provide what is called “empathic listening”.
in a very odd way, the P is an excellent therapist. With psychopathic mirroring, you are really able to focus on yourself and the two of you are able to make great strides. Too bad, it ends in agony, for they cannot keep it up, but the mirroring is something we all miss in the wooing stage. I won’t believe anyone who says otherwise. The mirroring was like our own little narc supply. Did we not hear how great we were? and unique?
Now, I live by “I am special. Just like everyone else”. (a bit of a sad joke)
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Hopeforjoy says:
Firefly,
Obsessing comes from me, getting bogged down by the situation and not knowing the quickest way out.
My therapist is a psychotherapist and talks out problems as well. She has said that husband is narcisstic and controlling, emotionally abusive, she also refused to see him again saying their session was unproductive. She recommended al-anon for my coping with his sex addiction. Regardless, it never seems to be the concrete “He’s abusive, get out!”
But I know he is abusive. I do feel better when I see the therapist, she ‘hears’ me and gets me to take more control of my life.
I am imagining a peaceful place tonight and will focus on some projects that I am looking forward to getting done (tearing down wallpaper and painting). Thanks for the advice
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OxDrover says:
Dear Hopoe4,
Darling why do you need SOMEONE ELSE TO TELL YOU HE IS ABUSIVE, GET OUT? You already KNOW THAT.
VALIDATE YOURSELF!!!! And yes, you do fit the “yes, but…” pattern and WE HAVE MOST OF US (all?) been in the same spot at one time or another. I just could NOT turn loose of my egg donor, I kept believing it would get better or she would UNDERSTAND and quit devaluing me….NOPE. She may not actually be a psychopath, but she is one by PROXY, as she ENABLES my P-son to have the resources to KILL ME. She knows the truth, but DENIES it, trivalizes it, devalues me, smears me, lies to me, and on and on, so it is only when I quit saying YES, BUT…” and ACTED to save myself did I even get in a place I COULD HEAL.
You are an ENABLER—Al Anon is for ENABLERS, and enablers “help” others but DO NOT HELP THEMSELVES. I was an enabler. I helped others, but NEVER MYSELF. I did for others, but not for myself.
Your H-P is NOT your responsibility,, YOU ARE, and your kids, and right now, it is my opinion that you are falling down on your responsibility to take care of yourself and your kids.
Get up and take care of yourself and your kids. YOU CAN DO IT! You have the knowledge, now USE IT!!!!! It will be SCARY and HARD, and scary and harder and scarrier and scarier and harder but you can do it and there is LIFE AND HAPPINESS AND PEACE at the end of that road!!!! And, I can guarentee that if you don’t ACT, there is nothing but pain in the place you are NOW!!!! (((hugs))))) and my prayers sweetie!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
ox – just read your post from this aft to me. thank you again for sharing what you have learned. somehow this post and the other i responded to earlier really clicked for me.
i am sick of the spath. don’t really want to deal with it at all anymore. haven’t completely figured out what to do, but i am getting there (in terms of who and what to pass off to others. ’cause i just can’t do it. i need it to be over.)
i had an interview yesterday. 100 applicants for 1 position. 13 made it to the first round of interviews. have been invited for the second. maybe 4 or 5 of us were. when i walked out of the interview – after spending an hour and a half talking to 5 people i have never met, i took a big breath and exhaled, thinking…’ to be free of this horrid fucking woman, to be engaged in other things, this is my wish.’ it seems hardly possible still. but it must be.
night night,
one
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firefly says:
Hopeforjoy,
Is there a “quickest way out” for you or is this something that is going to take time? I only ask because when I was still with spath #2, my line of thought was to save money, wait for the divorce. I was deluding myself, and it was me who was keeping me from leaving. Once that hit home, I left. Yes, everyone is different, while on the other hand, everyone -even you- deserves to be safe.
“But I know he is abusive.” Try this, “He is abusive,” then go on from that point.
Al anon to cope with his sex-addiction? Why do you need to (cope) take ownership of his behavior?
Take control of you, your life because you only live once.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Firefly, the referral to al-anon was for HER not for her copiing with HIM, because she has ENABLED him, to continue to abuse her, to lie to her, etc. It starts out about them, but ends up about US—not blaming the victim, but accepting responsibility for OURSELVES not for others behavior.
One-step, I sat down and wrote a book about my biological sperm donor and the things that he did, from murder on, and fully intended to PUBLISH IT. And, I knew that the last thing he wanted me to do was publish the TRUTH—he had already published his VERSION of his life–99% FICTION and 1% truth. He did in the end end up quite “famous” and VERY wealthy
I researched and wrote the 600 page book of his life, his family, his 7 marriages, his con games, everything—named names and dates and evidence, interviewed witnesses, —but once it was done, I realized I had let him EAT UP a year of my life, but also I realized I didn’t even hate him any more.
When he died a coupleof years ago even though he left me not one centavo By law I had to be notified by his estate. I had always thought that when he died I would sue his estate and “settle out of court” for some large sum, but I realized I didn’t want his money. I realized that even if he had left me 100 million dollars I would have given it ALL away to come cause he would have hated. I didn’t want his blood money. Had no desire for it.
His autobiography is out there on the internet now for free, all 1200 pages of it. At first when I realized he had had his executor put all of it on the internet for free and that when my maiden name was googled it would come up with is 7 chapters of it that he told every lie about me that could made up. At first I was so upset, then I realized I didn’t even care about THAT. SO WHAT!?!!!! The people who KNOW ME won’t believe one word of it, and if people who never heard about me believe ALL of it, SO WHAT? I know he did it because he was so afraid that his relatives would believe me instead of him, and you know what? They DID. His ex wives knew the truth (all of them I know) People he did business with knew the truth about him. Or at least enough of the truth to know he was a LIAR. A phony! A crook! A beast! His employees knew it, 3 of his 4 children knew it, and had nothing to do with him. The man never had a real friend in the world. Pretty sad if you think about it. His father didn’t like or trust him, none of his sibs did, none of his first cousins did, nor his uncles and aunts.
One, your resources are limited. Use them for YOUR needs, and let go of the need to justify yourself by outing that wicked evil woman! It took me a lot of energy, time, and resources to quit hating them. To quit wanting to instrument some kind of vindication or validation from others that I was “right.” It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks. You know you are right! You know she is evil. You know she IS THE LIE.
So, will it be any MORE real if someone else says it? OK, here it is. SHE IS EVIL. YOU WERE RIGHT. YOU GOT SHEET ON. Now take a deep breath and let KARMA get her, it will, just like it did my evil sperm donor. He died the most pitiful death I can imagine. He died unjustified, unhappy, and angry, bitter, alone, miserable after NEVER HAVING HAPPINESS, after never having felt love or care, just a need for power and control and it was never enough. He hated me because I stood up to him. IT AGE AT HIM. I finally quit letting it eat at ME. I WIN!!!!
Now take care of YOURSELF darling, and leave her to the universe! Then you will WIN!!!!!! All the marbles, all the chips, because you will put yourself as more important, more valid than she/it is! ((((hugs)))) and my prayers that you will have PEACE!
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Outlier says:
ErinBrock, I’m sorry I didn’t respond yesterday as I said I would. I need to clarify that my 2 sociopaths are: a doctor (‘sister’), and a neighbour (a psychiatrist). The psychiatrist educates the doctor (my sociopath sister) in a way a master teachers a student how to do things, if you get my drift. I mention their roles b/c of the irony that disordered people go into medicine and use their profession to abuse their targets (“such and such has a disorder, we need to do something about them”).
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OxDrover says:
Dear Outlier,
They also become ceos, lawyers, cops, wardens, coaches, teachers, professors, ministers & priests, judges, politicians and military, any position with status and/or authority over others is attractive to psychopaths, who are looking for people they can “lord it over.”
Occasionally one or more will “team up” together to work toward a common destruction of someone.
It is ironic that these people who have so much power to do good use it for selfish reasons.
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Outlier says:
OxDrover, neither am I interested in my folk’s inheritance, for similar reasons. Over ten years ago I decided to have my entire share given to causes my sociopaths would hate – sexually abused children and abused adults. She, my brother (who has contempt for my parents and persistent love for money) and his wife (a lawyer, hey ho) fabricated a story that i was meddling with assets and wills. My family believe every word they say.
I worked out around 19 years of age not to trust anyone in my family, save for one sister (to some extent). With such a large gap between myself and my siblings, I observed the horrible games they played with each other, the boys have awareness and EQ as high as a worm. It’s never crossed my mind to tell them anything as they are quite blind and totally incapable of comprehending what abuse is. IFor someone who has had it all mylife, I can’t imagine not being aware of psychlogical abuse, but we must understand that people who don’t know, simply don’t know as they have never had the experience.
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ErinBrock says:
Outlier:
I guess I didn’t get your ‘story’ straight. I thought the S was a brother and a Mother.
And things were being shared by a therapist……which concerned me.
I’ll butt out until I get a better understanding.
The pitfalls of non verbal communications.
My appologies.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Outlier,
My problemm was that I am only now at over age 60 getting that the way I was raised WAS VERBAL ABUSE with a bit of physical abuse when I rebelled once at age 15 from my egg donor. Then again at age 19 from my sperm donor.
I honestly did not comprehend that what was being done to me was ABUSE. Devaluation and Control. Guilt tripping and convincing me that what was happening to me was NORMAL. Even desirable. That they had a RIGHT to do this even when I was an adult.
Working out the truth was very difficult because I accepted that they LOVED ME and did it “for my own good” or “their idea of for my own good out of love”—-yes, if that is love, I do not want any more of it! LOL
Down to a couple of years ago when I went NC my egg donor still did not get it that she could not BUY my soul! The sperm donor wasn’t trying to buy me but to PUNISH me by witholding an inhertience, but NEITHER OF THEM ACCOMPLISHED IT. He of course didn’t ever know that I didn’t care about his money, and I am sure he assumed I did, because money/power/control was all he ever cared about so he thought I would feel the same way. NOT SO.
Egg donor is upset that I am not in NEED of fher “help”—but even if I WAS in need, living in a tent, eating out of a garbage container at McDonald’s, I would still not NEED OR WANT her money or “help.” It never dawned on her that what I wanted was her LOVE and approval.
In a way my culture AND my egg donor taught me NOT to be “beholden” or “in debt” to anyone so that someone could control me with that “debt” to them. I always paid my fair share and did not take “gifts” from people that I did not trust that they were genuine GIFTS and not “down payments on control.”
Independence financially gives one a lot of independence in a lot of OTHER WAYS.
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ErinBrock says:
BIELA trial update:
Just in……..
Penalty phase Jury in – VERDICT=DEATH PENALTY.
Aggravating circumstances did not outweigh Mitigating circumstances.
NO reaction from James Biela as verdict read.
When escorted out of courtroom in handcuffs (for the first time during trial), he walked past his family and looked murderously ANGRY!
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OxDrover says:
Dear EB,
Thank dear, maybe he is MURDEROUSLY ANGRY. What ya wanna make a bet he makes a SUICIDE GESTURE! LOL
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ErinBrock says:
I just read a media report that as he left he mouthed to his family “I love you”.
THAT CERTAINLY WASN”T THE LOOK ON HIS FACE THOUGH!
That’s ironic……because the look i interpreted on his face was the same general look my spath had……even as he told me he loved me….
The camera was on him the whole time…..there was no eyebrow lift as you would have telling someone I love you…..Mouth those words out right now….and tell me how your face moves.
Weird!!!
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OxDrover says:
That’s one of the things that is about the Ps, is that they may “smile” and yet only their LIPS smile not their eyes. It’s like they don’t quite get the WHOLE face smile.
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firefly says:
Dear Ox,
Yes, I do understand the “about us” part; I was responding to hopeforjoys post where she writes, “She [therapist] recommended al-anon for my coping with his sex addiction.” That was why I responded with why should she cope (take ownership) with his behavior. He’s an abuser, get out, and then heal.
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