How psychopaths manipulate their victims
Snakes in Suits—When Psychopaths Go to Work is a new book published by Dr. Robert Hare, the international expert on psychopaths, and Dr. Paul Babiak, an industrial-organizational psychologist. Although the book is primarily about psychopaths in the corporate world, it contains important information for anyone who is dealing with one of these predators.
Chapters 3 and 4 explain how psychopaths manipulate their victims, and it’s absolutely chilling.
Hare and Babiak describe a three-phase process psychopaths use in their parasitic approach to life. This isn’t a process psychopaths have to plan, they do it naturally. Here’s how it goes, according to the authors:
- First, they assess the value of individuals to their needs, and identify their psychological strengths and weaknesses.
- Second, they manipulate the individuals (now potential victims) by feeding them carefully crafted messages, while constantly using feedback from them to build and maintain control. Not only is this an effective approach to take with most people, it also allows psychopaths to talk their way around and out of any difficulty quickly and effectively if confronted or challenged.
- Third, they leave the drained and bewildered victims when they are bored or otherwise through with them.
Psychological game
As a result of the manipulation, the psychopath establishes a “psychopathic bond” with the victim. Here’s how Hare and Babiak summarize the manipulation:
The psychopath’s psychological game involves analyzing the individual’s expectations and desires, and then reflecting them in a psychological mask that is so convincing the person bonds with him or her. This bonding can take place very quickly, even during the space of one cross-country airplane ride. There are two payoffs: the psychopath wins the immediate game by gaining the person’s trust, and the victim, now in the grip of the psychopath’s power, will soon give up whatever the psychopath requests or demands.
If you’ve been victimized by a psychopath, you’re probably trying to figure out how it happened. Read Snakes in Suits, especially chapters 3 and 4.You’ll find your answers.
Lovefraud mention
Snakes in Suits includes a sidebar about Lovefraud.com in the chapter about personal self-defense. I greatly appreciate the reference.
Another note—although I draw on the work of Dr. Robert Hare in Lovefraud.com, I’ve chosen to use the term “sociopath” in place of his use of the word “psychopath.” The reason is that most people assume a psychopath is a deranged serial killer, which may prevent them from realizing that the spouse, relative or coworker who is making them miserable may have the personality disorder. My purpose is simply to enhance communication.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Fighter says:
Rereading your blog tonight and don’t know HOW I missed this post. Just the bit you posted from Hare’s new book gave me a knot in my stomach.
You may have seen this post on my site:
http://cyberpaths.blogspot.com.....ction.html
That said, I know some sociopaths STUDY this mental manipulation stuff. But – what of those who don’t? What’s your theory on how these people know how to do this? Is it brain chemistry or years of interpersonal exploitation? Would be very interested to hear your take on this, Donna.
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Friday, 18 August 2006 @ 11:31pm
peggywhoever says:
Hmmm, an old but good article. My S specifically did things to meet my needs/desires and enhance my life i.e., instant hot water (so kids didn’t fight) and landscaping the back yard. He also built me a waterfall, which I had always wanted (everything he did was grandoise, i.e., sending me 3 dozen roses instead of 1 dozen). When I told him that embarassed me, and please just send me a dozen roses from Safeway for $11.99, he ceased sending flowers at all. His game was to get me to invest with him (he played for 3 years) and when he finally figured I wasn’t going to, he turned into the most cruel, heartless, aggressive and hostile person I have ever encountered. He’s now onto a victim who HAS invested with him (silly woman, she’ll lose it all). He’s big into life insurance, and I’m actually afraid that when he gets bored with the new victim, she might just go ‘bye bye’ as his ex-wife had “accidents” but luckily they did not kill her. It is absolutely chilling and frightening to contemplate.
Furthermore, when he had an affair, he actually DID meet a woman on a coast-to-coast airplane ride. He evidently did bond with her, because he had plans (waylaid by her husband eventually) to move her, her car, and all of her possessions across country, plus give her $10k (which of course he got from fraudulent activities).
So, the bonding can be fast and intense.
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Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 10:12am
OxDrover says:
I will be forever grateful to Dr. Hare and his book “Without Conscience” which was sent to me by a dear friend who had a P son.
My personal copy of Dr. Hare’s book is liberally highlighted with yellow marker and marginal notes. At the time, I only applied this to information to my P-bio-father, but it applies in spade to every P I have known personally.
I will order a copy of the “Sharks” book as well. Maybe I am OCD about learning more about P’s, but at the same time I wonder if my “interest” isn’t like the person who has been shot by someone else, and they buy a gun and go to the range to learn to shoot so that they become enough of an expert shot that they won’t be caught off guard again and shot. I’m not sure if that is a good analogy or not, but I think that the more I know, the more I can grasp, the easier it will be for me to spot the next one in time to not be victimized again.
Maybe if I had been bitten by a snake I would be learning as much as I could about reptiles and their habits and habitats so that I could more easily spot them before I stepped on one.
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Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 10:56am
philomela says:
I just saw this post- It is a really great post- I don’t know how I missed it- It goes along well with Steve Becker’s recent post about psuedo-insightfulness and psuedo-sensitivity. I”m going to read those chapters in “Snakes In Suits”.
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Saturday, 6 March 2010 @ 10:33pm
midlifecrisis says:
Great article and so true about how they manage to manipulate us – they gain our trust by at first appearing trustworthy and saying all the right things and then start the awful abuse. I spent ten years with my Pex and wonder when I look back why I wasn’t able to get out sooner – but of course there was that ‘bond’ – from my side it was real and sincere but from his side it was just a show so he could bleed me some more.
Oxy I understand that need to learn everything you can about them – I am the same. I never want to be in that position ever again and if I ever spot another one I will be off running so fast that I won’t be seen for dust. The experience was horrific on a scale I had never experienced before – every day was mental torture and of course all blamed on me. I am now reading and learning as much as I can to heal from this and each day I get stronger and further away from it but I will never forget it.
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 1:43am
bulletproof says:
it’s disgusting that they are so good at grooming us for the bonding. It’s like being a trusted friend to someone innocent so you can damage them later usually through slow torture affecting every sense in the body.
I pray for everyone affected that they have the strength to get to a safe place so they can begin to heal.
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 5:03am
OxDrover says:
I did get a copy of “Sharks” and read it and read it, it describes most of my workikng life, not all attacks were aimed at me,, but I saw attacks on others, on whole institutions, on clients, etc. It is a GREAT BOOK and I have currently loaned it to a retired attorney friend of mine who DOES get it, and does volunteer work with the as an advocate for foster kids with the courts.
We have to KNOW about them, and how they “appear” when we meet them. The FIRST thing I do when I meet someone and they start to come on to me immediately STRONGLY is to BACK OFF a bit—Borderlines and Psychopaths usually start their “grooming” early on with filing an “application to be your best friend, you’re so wonderful”–and Yes, I AM WONDERFUL but the thing is when someone you just met starts to act like they have NEVER BEFORE MET A SUPERSTAR and YOU are this superstar, WHAT IS A RED FLAG ABOUT THIS?
In the past, I fell for some of this crap, this wooing. It was wonderful to have someone I just met be soooooo enthralled by my jokes, my wit, my beauty, my intelligence—gosh HOW PERCEPTIVE THEY WERE! They just couldn’t DO enhough for me, or be around me enough! Or tell me how wonderful I was enough!
RED FLAG!!!!! Flying high. Friendships are formed slowly over a period of time. So when someone “fills out an application” to be my BEST FRIEND I back off. In fact, once this gal who rented one of our houses started doing that kind of thing, and in talking to her over the phone she admitted to me that she had been diagnosed ASPD…..
That’s another RED FLAG too, is many of the Ps don’t have many/any friends, so they are always having to find new ones to replace the ones they have screwed over and lost. So they are EAGER to be your friend, and if you latch on to them, or let them latch on to you, they will distance you from all your other friends so they have complete control.
Another sign to me that is a red flag, too is if the person is either from a much higher or much lower socio-economic level. Now I’m not a money snob, but I know I don’t have the resources to hang around people who have huge incomes and to go do the things they do, and I also have no desire to hang around with street people either, we just don’t have a lot in common. I don’t hang out with the alcoholic or druggie crowd, or people with criminal records.
Many Ps can blend in with just about “any crowd” like a camellion almost, but the one thing I see is that they TURN THE CHARM ON QUICKLY and you start feeling that they SEE The real you, the WONDERFUL you and when I get that GLOW of their appreciation of all my wonderful qualities—I PUT THE BRAKES ON, BACK UP, AND LOOK, LISTEN AND FEEL. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.
Sure, I love it when people tell me how wonderful I am! I love it when people say I am smart and savy and lots of my wonderful qualities—(hanging head in mock humility here) but, you know, I think only psychopaths are “intuitive enough” to recognize those qualities in me within 5 minutes of first meeting me. LOL I think that may be one reason I let the jerks get to me is that they made me FEEL SOOOOOO GOOD at least for a while till the abuse set in!
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 2:47pm
Rosie says:
Oxy, I have had a female freind just like that! It appears it’s not just male socio’s I have suckered me in.
She was a good decade older than me and acted like a mentor in a way..it wasn’t long before I was not only working with her but also ferriting her teenager around, looking after her baby on my days off and basically at her beck and call 24/7. She was one of those high energy people who seemed to live off nervous energy. Highly manipulative, she managed to get a fellow colleague laid off.
Looking back on my life I really have come across so many “cluster B’s” in so many forms, all so different in terms of levels of success or even which side of the law they’re on, but all leaching off others in one way or another.
I’ll stick to nice people in future!
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 3:37pm
OxDrover says:
Yea, Rosie,
Friends do DO THINGS FOR each other, but it shouldn’t be so one-sided that one becomes a servant to the other. It is up to US though to set boundaries and say “NO! I can’t do that!” Instead we feel bad and resentful about doing for and doing for them instead of taking care of ourselves.
If someone asks me to do something I no longer say YES when I want to say NO. If I want to say NO I say NO and do not feel guilty about it. By the same token, I do not want my friends to say “Yes” when they don’t mean it. HONESTY is the BEST POLICY and I am honest to the core! I expect it from my friends too!
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 5:56pm
erin1972 says:
My sociopath said all the right things and promised that he would be the ONE who would never hurt or lie to me and I am so ashamed and humiliated that I was able to just toss aside my morality about not being with someone who belonged to someone else. He had me hooked right away and promised that he had never stepped out on HER-ever. He was just”so in love with me and he had never felt for her what he felt for me”. I found out later that it was true that they were NOT intimate and had a “friendship” type marriage. He couldn’t toss her out because she had been there with him through his medical training. She said that he refused her sexually and after he had open heart surgery, told her that he was impotent. He could get it up with her. He was afraid of needing viagra to satisfy me but never had to take it. Our sex was phenomenal and he had NO trouble at all and had much more stamina than I thought for someone 16 years older than me. After SHE found out about us, it came out that he had done this to three other women who were way younger than him. He preyed on the fact that my self esteem was low, I was very empathetic, nurturing, lonely and a genuine honest nice person. I took the target quiz on here and I am apparently the sociopath’s ultimate target. He built up my self esteem so high and then tore the rug out from under me by discarding/devaluing me because I became wise to his lies and he had to guard his reputation with his life. What is wrong with a wife who would completely take him back so many times? She has to be TOTALLY OUTSIDE OF HER MIND. I don’t even get why it took her two weeks short of a year to figure out that he had done it again. I am terrified of this happening to me again. A friend tried to get me together with a guy recently and I had a full blown panic attack. I think I have PTSD. I work with two doctors at my new job who are his friends. I think that they have tried to make me look bad with my new co-workers. He and I have NC. I have changed my phone #, e-mail and moved twice since the breakup. I am so ashamed that I fell for it and that I was with someone else
s husband. I am so humiliated and sometimes I feel like I can’t breathe for missing him SO much and at the same time, I want to see him in massive amounts of pain. I want to put his picture on a billboard in the middle of downtown to warn other women.
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 6:55pm
jelltogether says:
All three points I can now see was exactly what was done to me. First, assessing strengths and weaknesses. He knew I was going through a very painful divorce and overheard that I wished I had a good man who would really love me. Second, the crafted messages of how he would never hurt me like my first husband did and that my ex was a fool to ever let me go. The spath encouraged me to talk about what had happened and my feelings. He “cared so much” but yet would throw things back in my face during arguments or when he left me. He took those intimate things I told him and used them against me. He used them to tell me that I was crazy and that’s why he left. He is still using them to excuse his behavior. Third, he has used me up now, he knew I was getting tired of his immaturity, lack of a regular job, his constant need to party and be the life of the party so he took himself off and found someone who doesn’t know that much about him or probably doesn’t care.
Oxy is right, we were on totally different economic levels. He knew I had been in a marriage with a very succesful man and would be getting a settlement.His family was dirt poor literally. He loved that I had a great car, house and could buy things. He loved it so much that I was helping him out of the hole he was in because of his ex’s “stealing his money”. And when he helped me into bankruptcy because he never paid back any of the “helping out” he made sure he had someone who would help him out again. He has no need for me at the moment, he has gotten himself a job for now, he has found a woman who got life insurance money from her deceased husband. She helps him out by giving him a car, a car that he won’t pay for. I am sure that she is helping him furnish his apartment because I am sure that I am the wife who ’screwed him over” according to him. So sick and I feel so sick that I kept letting him do that. I know that he moved on because I stopped helping him out and expected him to stand on his own two feet. I expected him to be man and that is something he couldn’t be. He could only be a shadow of a man. He had all the right words, he could have some of the actions but he had not the reality or real essence of a real person. I concentrate on the fact that he will never know what real love is like, he will never know what intimacy is or be able to have a complete life. That in a weird way is comforting because I know that after all he has taken from me financially, emotionally and spirtually, he can never take the fact that I can go on and have a real life, a complete life.
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 9:29pm
erin1972 says:
Jelltogether-you are exactly right about that. These men have taken up residency in our hearts for too long and they don’t deserve to be there. Yours was different than mine in respect that I didn’t have money for him to take. Mine had a lot of money and he knew that wasn’t why I was with him. He only preyed on me emotionally. I feel emotionally raped by him-if that makes sense. I have PTSD from it too-I think. THis has made me realize that I have to figure out what is wrong with me. The one thing that I know is that I AM NOT CRAZY!!
I am naive, lonely, nurturing, empathetic,loyal, loving and trusting. I have so much love to give but I present the PERFECT target for these guys and I don’t know how to do something about that. I can’t change who I am but I don’t know how to make myself not susceptible to them. I am terrified that I will never be able to stop doing this! It is SO hard when all you friends and family are married and partnered up and that’s all you want. I never knew that I ever wanted kids until I fell for him-but thank GOD we didn’t have any-even though that’s what I wanted at the time. I AM SO GLAD THAT WE DIDN’T!!! Then I would have a constant reminder and it would have been possibly harder to do NC!!!
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 10:01pm
jelltogether says:
Feeling emotionally raped is right on the money. It makes perfect sense to everyone here in this community. They take something from you that hits you in the heart, mind, body and soul. Believe it or not God was watching out for you by not letting you have a child or you would have to deal with him forever as many here can attest.
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Sunday, 7 March 2010 @ 10:22pm
midlifecrisis says:
Yes jelltogether you are right on the child issue – t hey make lousy fathers indeed. I knew for some reason I couldn’t have a child with him – I rationalised that I didn’t feel safe with him but looking back now I think my body was warning me about his bad genetics – there is a wise part of us deep down somewhere I think. Ii am very sad I don’t have children but am not sorry I didn’t have them with him – that would have been hell forever.
And how he would have loved that control and contact for life.
Erin – they use our wish for children to manipulate us. Mine was always promising we would have children ‘one day’ and the years ticked by faster and faster. He had no intentions of changing his behaviour so I would feel safe to bear a child with him. He was selfishly using me for sex, adulation and attention, money and all the support and love I lavished his way. It was all a one way street.
I am sorry you didn’t get to have your baby – I understand that pain. I have met so far two surgeons and both of them exhibited antisocial tendencies and a God complex so now I will stay totally away from surgeons – they are far too arrogant for my liking.
I hope both you ladies are healing – sending some good thoughts your way. This is perhaps the hardest journey we will ever make but the most rewarding in terms of finally ‘coming home’ to who we always deserved to be
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 12:53am
erin1972 says:
midlifecrisis-The ex was a trauma surgeon and all of this buddies were as well. His best friend was as evil as he was. I believe now that some doctors go into surgery as a legal and acceptable way to mutilate and cut body parts-almost like the teens you hear about that abuse animals. They are so OBSCESSED with social status and reputation that they know that their violent tendencies are socially unacceptable. Surgery is a good way to release that energy. I will NEVER go near one again. My ex and his best friend married acceptable nurses their own age but cheat on them with much younger ones. My ex’s wife was older, fatter, and uglier than me so it was a big blow to my already low self-esteem that he picked her in the end. It’s good that he did though, because what he did to me, he did to 3 other women before me. The first one happened in the beginning of his marriage and she takes him back every time. They deserve each other and it amazes me that it took her a year to find about us. His demeanor totally changed after we got together. He went from being total asshole before me to great guy when we got together. She can have his ass. He claimed of wanting to be with me forever and was planning our future until the first visit with the attorney-he comes home and says I don’t love you anymore-I used you for sex-you are trash-all of this Mr Hyde behavior in front of all my neighbors in the front yard. He is pathetic and ridiculous and tried to blame all this one his bad childhood. BULL SHIT! Anyway-good riddance to bad bad garbage. He is a POS that will never change. I was SO angry at first that she took him back, but now I am glad. If she hadn’t, he would have had a psychotic break and blamed me and could have come after me with violence. His behavior was like he just snapped! Scary! I’m glad I have two guns.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 1:16am
midlifecrisis says:
Erin yes I think you have something with the power they feel when mutilating others – the two I met were both plastic surgeons and women haters – they claimed to love women and highlighted the benevolent aspect of their work as ‘helping people feel better’ but I disagree – they are carving up bodies and faces and love the power trip it gives them. Both independently claimed that women offered sex in exchange for sex. Gross.
I am also suspicious of Doctors for the ‘God complex’ reason as well – they are well known to cheat on their wives with pretty little nurses.
He chose her over you deliberately for two reasons I think:
1) He doesn’t want to pay her out – she would screw him in a divorce after so many years … and
2) He knew it would humiliate you that he chose someone much less appealing than you.
My ex also did this trick. He picked a truly ugly woman as the next victim for grooming and someone I knew before and don’t like. This was designed to humiliate and bother me. It did at first but now I just remember what the poor b**ch has ahead of her and gloat a little in my own sweet way. Maybe it’s her karma to end up with him – who knows? She’s totally smitten and has no idea of the evil that lurks beneath that mask. He has selected her as she’s young, dumb, naive and overly responsible so she’ll do a good job of cheering him on, paying his bills and mopping up the endless messes he creates.
Just like I did.
The good thing about them going to someone else is that they now realise we see through them and there’s no more supply, money, sex, attention, sympathy, support or friendship coming for us. They know we are serious when they go to hook up with someone else.
As for saying he used you for sex and you’re trash – well he’s the trash. Any person who can bang someone with no feelings involved from their side is trash and quite frankly I’d rather be ‘called’ trash than BE a psychopath. One is an opinion (and a stupid one) the other is an unchangeable fact and scary as hell.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 2:02am
knowledgeempowers says:
Wow Jell, look at your progress from just a week ago! You are doing so well, coming to terms and dealing. Remain strong, your on the right track! So happy to see that : )
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 7:12am
silvermoon says:
I keep seeing how I walked right into it. Pollyanna innocent. Eew.
But I wanted a hero and he filled that role. Quite a story and who knows right now if it isn’t true? I don’t, but I’m not looking for it either. What is real is that he wasn’t. The story doesn’t matter. Its just noise.
Some facts remain self evident……
I come to that place where it just is what it is and there is nothing I can do about it except let it pass one day at a time.
I can function at life and I can understand what happened and why and all the rest is just to feel my way through letting go.
I think its not about being brittle or resistant to the feelings around loss or grief but rather the opposite of begining with the end in mind that the relationship was intolerable and that moving on is MY CHOICE.
Staying in it either in person or in my head is a decision that I have to make and execute. As long as I let him linger, its still going on. And there are so many ways to do that.
But, it would allow me to keep the fantastic hero who marched into my life and whom I might have allowed to make it all ok. But it wasn’t ok. It wasn’t real.
I’ve been lucky. And got a second chance.
Sure don’t want to waste it.
Doesn’t matter what he says or what he does. What is true is true. And there is nothing I can do to fix him or stop that. His fate and mine are no longer joined. The bond is released because I let go.
Not looking for him in the corners of my mind or bed or closet. Not pining that he isn’t here. He isn’t. That is that. Its a fact and I can choose how I respond to it. I can throw it in neutral and accept it- he ain’t here and he ain’t comin back. I have to get the dog and the trash out by myself. Well, I can do that.
So right before breakfast and the work day, I can touch base with this. Remind myself it MY CHOICE to go forward and leave the rest here for now.
Well, if it had not happened, I wouldn’t know. Now I know.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 9:08am
Renewedhope says:
Some 27 years ago My S woman came into my life and swept me off my feet. She took me off the streets of Phoenix so I was already overtly grateful to her and she took me and push me into the roll she really wanted -that of her houseboy. I believe the other term is indentured servitude?I never wanted to be in that role but she wouldn’t have an equal relationship with me because that would take too much power away from her. It was always her way or the highway. When I got a job and on my feet I was already stuck in the mode. I broke away from her the first time and kept the door open long distance just enough for her to be in my life as a long distance friend. Amazingly enough.. I was always the closest to her when I was far away from her. She could parlay this fictitious visual to me. Being a Piscean and a dreamer.. she told me what I wanted to hear. She was so good at playing the Game. But the minute I would fly to Phoenix and be near her..the mask came off and she couldn’t come through with anything she promised. The fake was exposed. I saw that and fell for it three different times. It was only this past time when I started doing the research and realized she is a unadulterated sociopath! When I confronted her with it in an email.. she didn’t disagree. She answered me in one short sentence:”Yes.. and Do Not Contact me again” after I told her I never wanted to see her again. She knew this time she was caught. She didn’t even try to make up anything. This was proof that the old adage “The Truth shall set you free” rang true!I have been NC ever since.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 11:28am
style1 says:
Exactly what happened with mine.. he watched me, figured out what I wanted and said and did all the things to get me to pay attention to him.. while down playing reality..
I never quite bought his game.. but did enough to go along with it for awhile.. but when he saw that I wasn’t going to be taken over.. he slowly became the arrogant jerk that he really is.. and he could tell by my family interaction that he would be seen though soon.. they can only play their game so long.. I got out.. but it still affects me .. in that, he infiltated my life.. and I bought into his con dream for awhile.. I want what he created.. but he couldn’t actually make it happen.. he was a fraud.. and I he wanted what he created also… he bought into his own BS.. It looked good but had no substance..
I am sure he is off trying to con another woman… he needs a woman.. he needs that photo on his desk.. he is so needy.. so full of emptiness.. it was like he tried to fill himself up with my life..and he did for a year.. while I felt confused, ill, tense, occasionally happy and mostly frantic inside as to what what going on.. my instincts knew.. but he was enticing, charming and attractive and I bought what he was selling for awhile but not ever completely..
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 11:39am
silvermoon says:
My SPATH was really excited by extra marital sex. He was happy with me until he moved in and then it was over and there were lots of promises, lots of discussions around bonding and trust and the whole time he was using me as the one in the background who he was stepping out on. I got convinced that he was being considerate and real to me and that the depth of my feelings were reciprocated.
But there were the others on going. Hundreds of them.
This guy was a wild ride.
He was already married to somebody else too.
The truth will out!
We had everything to gain together and all he had to be was the one thing he could not: REAL. I will never understand why he fouled our nest so horribly, but I can’t fix it or him.
It doesn’t matter what the story is. There is no plausible excuse. The only answer is no answer.
On this side of the fence, we just have to accept, that is the way it really is. even when it hurts.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 11:45am
how2deal says:
I just got turned on to this site as I went through the checklist on a sociopath and believe that my soon to be Ex is one. How do you know for sure though? We have 2 children whom I refuse to allow him to visit without supervision. He is trying to convince others that I am crazy and denies everything as if it didn’t happen. My kids are young and the DSS was involved at one point but closed the case because my Kindergartener can’t disclose what his Daddy did to him. But I know in the pit of my stomache that something happened and all I can do is fight him through the courts but I am worried that he is soo good at convincing others that they will by his story. He took a polygraph and passed it which makes this even more complicated. I am scared for my children and my own personal safety as he always seems to get away with everything. He has a military background as well which makes him even more dangerous. How do I get people to understand and examine him more closely? I feel like it is all up to me to expose him!
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 12:01pm
silvermoon says:
dear how2
I can feel your fear and frustration. I can relate to the question that causes you to ask the question about how you know for sure.
Having been through a divorce I can relate to being fearful for my son and wanting to be sure I protected him and his interests in the process because Dad is a Narcissist with a self medication problem….I got confirmation about him through family counseling resources because we both went together and the woman we worked with recognized him.
The first thing may be to get yourself a really good divorce attorney. Check their ratings and references. Check their records and then make it very,very clear that you are afraid for yourself and your children.
The legal system is difficult to navigate and when you’re scared, is no place to go it alone. I will NEVER regret what I spent on a good attorney. he wasn’t a therapist, but he helped me to make sure that I was able to achieve my goals in the legal system.
There are theraputic resources listed here where you can find people who understand what you are dealing with. Make sure to comb the site for books and resources.
Get good advice and come here for information and support.
You are surrounded by others who understand the feelings that come with this and I bet there are some here who can share experiences which will be helpful to you.
They sure have for me and it has been a very, very good thing for me to be here.
Don’t forget to breathe!
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 12:22pm
how2deal says:
Maybe all of you out there can help me figure this man out- he spent the 10 years of marriage in denial. Lying, cheating, alcohol, pornography were normal events. He had no remorse or guilt of doing these things to me and many times would re-write history. I would catch him cheating and then he would deny it happened – almost dillusional! He was cold in bed and I couldn’t figure out what was the problem sexually, there was just something off – emotionless. He almost looked evil and it would scare me. We stopped sleeping together and I always had an excuse why I didn’t want to have sex. I had a gut feeling he was living a double-life. Always coming up with reasons to leave the house. I caught some homosexual web sites on our computer that freaked me out! He never showed any empathy when I was sick, he would almost get mad because I couldn’t do all the things I normally do especially taking care of the kids. He hated Holidays for some reason and would never surprise me. He would just ask what do you want and then tell me what he got for me. I started questioning who is this man that I am married to? He has a violent temper and when he made me cry, he would mock me and laugh instead of having any sympathy. I started to hate him. He has a very polished exterior. Smart, good-looking, charming, energetic, good conversationalist, superior sales ability which is why he is so good at his job as an investment broker. NObody would beleive me if I said he is a true Spath. I feel very alone in this battle to protect me kids from their own father. ANy advice?
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 12:29pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Howtodeal,
READ READ READ, get the books here, especially (in your case) SNAKES IN SUITS, learnoing about them KKNOWLEDGE=POWER and that is important right now, until you get your emoitional feet under you and feel your child is safe.
Ps are not homo or hetro, many are just SEXUALLY motivated and will “screw anything” they are neither gay nor straight.
Everything you say about him sounds right on, and he apparently has a good mask he wears when outside his home. This may be the worst hurdle you have to fight is getting him to lose hold on that maskk in from of SIGNIFICANT witnesses, like the juddge.
It is IMPORTANT that you not come across as “crazy” (and he will try to make you look that way) God bless you and give you strength to fight this battle for yourself and your child.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 1:20pm
Zen says:
OxDrover,
re sexual issues and the sociopath, is that always the case? That they are highly sexualized? Or are they like the rest of the population, some have high libidos and some not so much or at all?
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 2:07pm
OxDrover says:
Zen, Dr. Leedom did an article on the fact that many Ps seem to not be too specific what sex they are having sex with, of course NOT every one is highly sexed or bi-sexual,, but it seems to be more the case with the Ps than with ordinary folks. Some are SEX “ADDICTS” literally. There are some similairatites in them, more of them are ADHD than the general population, more of them are bi-polar than the general population, more are left handed as well. There are several things like that that are “markers” but not DEFINITE and not “causal” either. Just things that have been observed in a greater number among Ps than would be found in the percentage of that same kind of behavior in the general population.
I know the Trojan Horse Psychopath (ex cell mate of my P son) who is a pedophile (convictions X 3 with young children) was grooming a 12 year old male child before his arrest so I figure he would swing either way, and he was also having a S&M affair with my now-X-DIL. He was also contacting Russian Bride agencies as well. They have no loyalty to anyone or any thing and so sex is sex to them, so some of them at least don’t care what they are having sex with, or who. They sort of use the partner’s body to mastrabate with, there is no “joining” with any partner. If that makes any sense.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 2:15pm
Zen says:
OxDrover,
Ah okay that does make total sense and thanks for the explanation, I’ll look for Dr. Leedom’s article. You’ve been ‘around the block’ with dealing with this issue. You know I wonder sometimes how people keep their own sanity being under such terrible stress. I thought I had lost my mind while dealing with my alcoholic husband and was being treated for PTSD.
While I was searching online for insight on my question, I found this at a sociopath blog. Interesting re the brain issues and comparing to Asperpargers. Tell me your thoughts on this:
http://tinyurl.com/yh76fd8
“My son is an aspie and after study and experience there are some similarities on a neuroscientific level between the sociopath and the aspie which from what I have seen lies in underactivity in the limbic system for both. Differences between the two lie in the cortex and spinal base. While an aspie is sure to have some abnormality in the autonomic nervous system (which can vary between inactivity in some and overactivity in others) the sociopath consistently shows an inactivity in this part of the nervous system making their emotional responses to their environment (and stresses thereof) often erratic.
Then there are differences in the cerebral cortex but not many. Under or over activity in the cerebral cortex is seen in Aspies effecting in some emotional labile, attending,sequencing and perservation. More severe there can be epileptic seizures and some large motor troubles usually not associated with ASPD but are associated in some cases with aspies. There is also some marked differences in activity coming from the parietal lobe in Aspies where this part of the cerebral cortex remains uneffected in most healthy antisocials.
Finally (but probably not everything worth mentioning just the end of my knowledge on this subject) There seems to be in both some slight to moderate overactivity in the temporal lobes. This is going to be the big one when it comes to catergorizing from a high functioning or a low functioning Aspie and antisocial. You talked about memory loss in one of your posts I think … the fact that some of your memories are like a haze. It’s not that you can’t remember but rather that you can’t grasp parts of it. Underactivity in the temporal lobe is associated with memory loss long term memory as well as loss of libido and extreme passivity (devil may care kind of attitude) while overactivity and a will likely still cause the same memory loss but libido is extremely high as is aggression. The deficit here in Aspies is usually an over activity while ASPD show some varying between underactivity and overactivity.
From a neuroscience level there are quite a few similarities however the quantity of differences means little when addressing the qualitative effects of those few dissimilarities. If you were to stand 5 people in a line of 4 antisocials and 1 aspie it would be easy to pick the aspie out. Just start engaging them.”
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 3:09pm
style1 says:
An issue so intense with me is that I never felt sexual attraction to him.. and I am highly sexual…meaning sex is important to me in a commited relationship…
His kisses were bad.. he used his tongue like a lizard.. I would cough when he kissed me.. his touch at times, felt claws.. yet he was handsome and we had fun togther..so I thought at first that something was wrong with me… although previous to him. I had a very good sexual relationship with a man..
But this guy felt distance in his self.. even as he was telling me over and over how much he loved me and how beautiful I am.. I didn’t feel it on a sincere deep level.. therefore, could not give my body to him.. and this body awareness helped me in the end.. had I connected with him in that way.. it would’ve been harder to disengage..
I think that he had sexual issues… he wanted to always be in control.. and again while he was handsome.. he has no sex appeal at all…
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 3:24pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Zen,
Thanks for that link. I really am not all that up on the neurochemical stuff that goes on with either aspies or Ps, but I do know a FEW things—and I emphasize FEW—from what I have READ (Dr. Leedom did an article about oxytocin research) Oxytocin is the “bonding hormone” and Ps have enough of the hormones but NOT enough of the receptors, but I think that there are PROBABLY MULTIPLE chemical and neuro transmitter differences in them that “make them what they are” and some of these I think are “turned on” by puberty (sexual hormones and development) and some by “environment”–or possibly environment turns some things OFF that would be protective. I think the research is in the infant stages though it has made a lot of progress I think we are FAR from having all the answers.
Right now, All I can say that I TRULY BELIEVE 100% is that there is a BIG genetic component (identical twin studies have shown from 50-80% of identical twins raised apart, if one is a P so is the other one) I’d also like to know HOW HIGH IN TRAITS the ones are that are not “full blown” Ps.
TRAUMA and EXPERIENCES have impacts on the brains that cause not only chemical changes but rerouting of neurons as well. Some of these are lasting and obvious. Some are seriously impairing, andn some not so much. STRESS of any kind changes the functions of the brain/body.
I’d love to be around in 100 years and see what medical science has learned by then about a lot of these things. As much as we know about the human body/mind, the subject is so complex, we haven’t even scratched the surface I think.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 3:49pm
Zen says:
OxDrover,
Thank you, very interesting re Oytocin. I agree re the genetic component from the little I have read. I do believe that the issue is just not a matter of character it goes far deeper IMHO than that. That would be fairly simplistic.
I worked in a non profit for most of my career and worked with an organization that took interest in brain research. At one conference I attended there was a speaker that had written a book entitled Ghost in the Nursery (I believe was the title). It was very interesting in regard to trauma very young children experience and how it affected those children long term.
I find brain chemistry and other brain research fascinating. Not sure why but I always want to know the ‘why’ of things how/why things work I guess. I have to take the time to read more of Dr. Leedom’s articles. I’ve read several but I need to go back and read more thoroughly.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 4:05pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Zen,
Me too! I am very curious about the workings of the human brain and I find that the body effects the mind and vice versa. The differences in me, the ME that is my thiking, my ablities,, etc. from pre-and post PTSD are becoming more interesting as some of those symptoms and changes slowly come “round” and I heal, but I do find that I am more easily set off by high stress, and I have to watch myself and avoid imposing more stress on myself, even if there is no external stress there, my own thinking can impose it.
I am not nearly so quick to recover physically or mentally as I was once upon a time, my short term memory is like swiss cheese, my spelling is worse, my hand eye coordination sucks now, and my word finding when I speak is poor, more poor even than my writing. Not sure why that difference, but it is there. These things all happened “at once” (only worse than now) at the death of my husband in a plane crash here at our airport, and have slowly gotten better, but still I am DIFFERENT now than before.
In some ways, better, but the things that interfeer with my functioning (like my mind not working like it did) tic me off at times, but I am learning to accept those differences even if I don’t like them. LOL
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 5:15pm
Zen says:
OxDrover,
I was also diagnosed with PTSD and it has been horrible really dealing with it, I am far far better now than I was. I was a manager for many years had hundreds of employees, had a huge budget but after the PTSD I was a mess! I kept thinking I KNOW I’m not this stupid! I still panic at times when in new situations. I was at the grocery yesterday and parked my car went into the store and was accosted by a man when I was halfway across the store and this man said to me, ‘are you driving the silver SUV?” Well at first I though omg the car was hit by this man but NO. I confirmed that was my car and he said ‘didn’t you see me waiting for that parking place, didnt you see my blinker?’ I thought uh NO I didn’t and thought you came across the store to confront me about such nonsense? I said whatever it took to get away from him but then I began to get a panic attack that got worse and worse. I still had several errands to run but wasn’t able to do them I had to go home.
Everything seems to be on the same plain, everything has the same importance whether it be the cake fell or someone dies it’s all the same. I have severe problems with startle reaction. It’s just beyond belief that I could be in this state but I am. I’ve lost about 60% of my hair due to the stress, it did begin to come back but then I had some setbacks so it began to fall out again.
The other thing I have problem with now is my sense of direction of all things. Very odd.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 6:59pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Zen,
I can relate to the increased stress. I had to retire as my short term memory went to crap and I literally could not read for the longest time. (Not good to take other’s lives in your hands when you have no memory) Had episodes of amnesia that lasted for several hours at a time, just “lost” those times and events that people would tell me I did or said and I had NO memory of it. Felt like I was losing my mind!
Slowly it is coming back. My son D who was also in the aircraft crash and was severely burned has PTSD as well. We both had memory problems and still do though we ARE BETTER.
The startle response has decreased for us, and my son C has PTSD and his startle response was TERRIBLE a year and a half after the event where he had a gun pointed at him when his wife and her BF were going to kill him (he had been living out of state til then) He came home to stay with me and his brother and got better, didn’t jump everytime the wind brushed a limb against the house.
I’ve only had one panic attack, and it was terrible, but once you realize what they are, you can talk yourself down from them (I know they are still terrible) I also take an antidepressant and so does my son D. Unfortunately my other son refuses to take antidepressant medication or to get therapy.
I can see how you would be upset and feel attacked by that stupid aggressive man. I would have felt the same way I think, except I would probably have called the store manager. I am more assertive about that kind of thing.
I also understand about not being able to distinguish between a real emergency and the cake falling. Very normal with PTSD.
I have fewer bad days than I did have 5 years ago, but my stress didn’t stop at all (after my husband died, I had the death of my beloved step father, all the chaos and drama with the rest of my family and the various Psychopaths that were trying to kill me, bankrupt me etc. So actually, it has only been a couple of years since it STARTED to come into FOCUS and I saw what I was deallin with. In themeantime, I have gotten rid of every dysfunctional creep in my rolodex including my mother, both my biological sons, even the one with PTSD I can’t save him from himself and if he wants to lie, he can lie to someone else, I can’t handle it. Had a pretty big melt down over that one in Dec. and January. But you know, I had to face it, accept it, and keep on trucking.
We have to put OURSELVES FIRST in our lives. DO what WE need done.
I wish I could work, but I turned in my license because I know I am NOT reliable enough, not capable enough, and so my income is very low, but since I don’t owe a soul a dime, I get by in a pretty nice level of poverty! Land and house rich, and cash poor, but fortunately, I don’t have any trouble with shopping at Goodwill and raising most of what we eat! Lots of people have a lot less, so I am very fortunate. I try to count my blessings and to THANK GOD for keeping me safe!
The friends I have left after the clean out are great friends and I have even made some new friends and am looking after myself physically and emotionally as well. KEEPING CONTROLABLE STRESS as LOW as possible. I can tell the difference in how I feel. EAting better, stopped smoking, exercising some more (that helps) and not ever saying “Yes” when I mean “No”—being NC with those that would hurt me or devalue me is very important! It was hard to do it, but now, I have NO desire to break it!
Hang in there Zen, don’t know how long ago you were diagnosed or so on, but keep going to therapy if you can at all, and medication does help a lot. Be good to yourself and when you do have a “trigger”like the man about the parking place, process through it after things settle down. God bless!
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 7:59pm
Zen says:
thank you so much OxDrover,
I have felt so inadequate because of it. It all started about 5 or 6 years ago. I don’t know if you’ve heard the term ‘workplace mobbing’ but that is what happened to me. I was not coping well at work due to my home problems with my alcoholic husband and then it started with a few of my staff at work. I finally quit my job after 20 years because I couldn’t deal with the stress of what was happening. I saw my doctor and was told I had PTSD.
After being home for a year or so recovering from that trauma and still not well, I finally filed for divorce. I went back to work at a job that was a very long way from my home, long commute.
More stress my soon to be ex began to threatening to kill me and had people calling my home 24/7 threatening me. I tried to get a restraining order to no avail. At the same time my divorce became final my husband died unexpectedly due to alcoholism. I began a relationship but ended after a few months. I went on a short vacation with this person and during the vacation I became very ill (everything was crashing in on me) and I had zero money. Then only 6 weeks after my husband died, my mother died unexpectedly. I was beyond myself. I had so many problems with coping with daily life it was awful.
Among all this insanity I met my SO and decided to move across country. You said KEEP CONTROLLABLE STRESS as LOW as possible? LOL Well seems I’m not too good at that one!
I never did take meds for PTSD although my doc did want me to take prozac but I didn’t take it. Did take St. John’s Wort and it did seem to help though.
I was surprised that I had a panic attack because of that man maybe because he embarrassed me in front of a lot of people I don’t know? But I am not working now, I am on a limited income and my SO takes care of a lot of the bills so things aren’t horrible. I just have to get a grip ! Joking!
God Bless!!
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 9:04pm
Twice Betrayed says:
More manipulation: it never ends. Why can’t these people just level…they lie even when the truth would serve them better.
My daughter and my X cleaned my house of what they wanted when I walked 3 years ago. The judge ordered nothing to be taken until the hearing to divide property. Of course, this meant nothing to my X. They took my personal photos, keepsakes, movies and all items they wanted. My daughter took many, lied and said she didn’t have them. I’ve even found my coasters at her home, she handed me one to set my drink on! Yesterday, a huge game went down of her texting me to say she was shopping for my GD a new ‘big girl bed’. The pictures were posted on FB and guess what? The furniture is from my house! Yes, it was from her room when she still lived at home, but why the lies? And in the picture, I can see my X husband’s arm leaning on the bed! The only shopping that was done was him bringing the furniture to her house. But, why do these people insist on playing these huge head games with all these elaborate fabrications and drama? I am glad to see my GD get this…I would have given it to her, had it been left in my home. So…all these games/lies/deception are just not necessary. All part of the huge game these people call life.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 9:09pm
Renewedhope says:
Dear Twice;
You KNOW what it is all about! Being in control! manipulation is what they do best.
Why did my ex S woman string me along for 27 years? She knew she didn’t want me..but she didn’t want anyone else to have me either. All she had to do is say”I am sorry I am just not that into you and I never have been”. Then I could have gone on with my life. But no she had to pull on that string… My Chain.. to keep playing the game.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 9:56pm
geminigirl says:
Dear TB and Oxy,
Im so glad you brought up the subject of PTSD, as Im sure I still have it. i was feeling pretty stupid and dumb and guilty yesterday, as I gota nasty email from my SIL,{who is turning out to be not as “nice” as I made him out to be in my mind.!}
He had found out that i had contacted one of my daughters best buddies, G, from Ds days of living pt. time in a squat. This episode Im referring to was just before my daughter “banned’ me from her facebook page, but kept on this toxic ex girlfriend.The girlfriend, G, had written on Ds facebook, “We didnt give a shit, did we,D?” and my daughter had replied,”No, G, we didnt give ashit!!” I saw it, and put in the comment,”maybe you two didnt give ashit, but I can assure you, your dad and I did. Thanks to the two of you having that party in our absence, in which the house was wrecked, the furniture smashed and broken, the pool filled with broken bottles,flour, sugar, and eggs thrown at the wall, where they set like cement, a fire extinguisher set off, ruining th carpet, my washing machine and dryer scored with knives, and worst o all, my art studio destroyed for the second time.My paintings painted over,f ramed watercolours of mine smashe,{th eglass was smashed to fine it was like powdered glass, my suede coat painted over with swastikas {with black oil paint, swastikas all over the walls, with Slut, bitch,etc, written all over the walls of the house.}G had actually puncheda hole in the wall of our new front porch! So, for mentioning this incident, I was”unfriended” from my Ds facebook, but G was kept on it. Later, I found G had her own facebook page, and shed written that she hadnt hada drink in 7 years, and that she was now a born again christian. So,{I know it was stupid!} I contacted G via her facebook, asking her if we could meet for coffee,andId try to get some understanding and closure on these terrible event which still haunts me to this day. I was stupid to think shed changed, she hasnt. Despite me asking her NOT to tell my D Id contacted her, G then contacted D straight away,with the result that D removed herself from all the families FB pages, including that of her 3 kids.She also told my SIL who now thinks Im a stupid idiot, and is angry with me.he also found out that Id contacted a former work colleague of Ds to try to find out her present address,{he claims not to know it, and Im sure this isa lie, -he HAS to know it to drop off and pick up the kids.}So, HE is furious with me, angry that I still refer to her when he is trying to get her out of his life, but he is frustrated that he CANT do this, because of the kids.Yesterday I emailed him that I had only been trying to get some kind of closure from G and D, but I now know Ill NEVER EVER get closure, and that I have to stay NC with her for ever.he has to “suck up” to her, in order to get her to look after her own kids at the weekend, and let him off the hook, so he can drive over to see his new GF,3 hours drive away. So, now Im faced with the fact I may now NEVER get to see my Gd kids, via him, as hes got the shits with me.Ive seen them twice in 18 months.Im now feeling terrible, because I looked at that stupid facebook, saw Gs comment, straight awya I got a panic attack, and was back in that destroyed house, with my ex having an asthma attack with the stress of it all.I have to forgive myself, and move on. I know now, NO looking up facebook, and its BETTER I dont know where she lives.Im now wondering if my SIL isa spath, or Narc,or just adversely affected by having lived for 15 years with my toxic daughter!Having a hard time not to beat myself up today, and now Im doubly upset, re my G kids,{if Ill ever see them again.} Love, GemXXPs Having my paintings destroyed by her felt like an attack on my soul. To this day, I havent managed to be able to paint again.Maybe its jealousy on her part? can you imagine such rage, jealousy, fury, to do this to your own Mother? Are they even human?Pss ,MY SIL smoked pot for years. Do you think this has affected him now? he wasa lso a very heavy smoker, but gave up a couple of yearsa go, at his new Gfs insistence.Howstupid I was to EVER think Id get any form of closure, its gone back to my daughter being the poor little victim,{not!} and me being the wicked witch again.I sure Oxy, TB, and caroline can relate to this.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 10:06pm
erin1972 says:
My sociopath not only knew exactly what to say or do but he knew just now to touch me to set me on fire. I had never been able to orgasm prior to him. With me being 36 and him 52, I never dreamed that the sex would be like that and I did learn that I AM much better in bed than I thought I was. It’s amazing that the one who used to give me such pleasure makes my skin crawl-and NOT in a good way. I get the creeps now when I think of him touching me. He did choose his fat ugly wife over me to humiliate me but he was primarily afraid because she had threatened to drain him financially. He went from crying over him ruining his marriage one day to the next day saying “that bitch is gonna take me for all I have” with such venom and hatred in his voice. The next day he’s crying and asking her to forgive him. The idiot had no idea what he was really feeling. I am glad though that she took him back. The day he left me was as close to a psychotic break as I’ve ever seen. He SNAPPED. I believe that if she hadn’t taken him back after all his crying, begging, pleading and sending flowers everyday, I think he would have snapped to the point of losing all touch with reality. I think then, I possibly would have had to use my gun to protect myself. I know that if she hadn’t taken him back, I would be fearing for my life. It’s still in the back of mind that if she bailed, he would come after me. His social status was his obscession and I think that he would go to ANY lengths to protect it. I do make sure that I watch my back and that I’m careful of my surroundings. The advantage that I have in Louisiana is that if I had to use the gun to protect myself, I would pretty much get off without any problem. It would take some work for him to find me. I still remember the day he moved in after she found out about us and kicked him out. His demeanor really freaked me out. He was crying but at the same time, there was a coldness and a little anger mixed in with something very evil and scary that I can’t even put into words.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 10:37pm
kim frederick says:
Question: how do you handle feeling REALLY TRIGGERED here on LF, by someone’s comments that you know are totally ignornt and self defeating and you want to really slam her? but you know she’s just a victim too, of sexism and stupid shit, and you feel sorry for her, but also know she’s the enemy?
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 10:57pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Renewed: Yeah, you are so correct! I just have to face the fact that even my kids enjoy cruelty. Wow……terribly difficult. My little GD looks just like my daughter when she was little. My daughter was so sweet, helpful and protective of me. And to think this is her now. Sad. I am sorry, Renewed, for your pain. I have nothing to offer, but to say I am there with you.
Gem: I relate. You know, at the risk of being labeled a fanatic: it’s almost like the kids we raised are gone and some demon is in charge. There is no closure…because we want closure….and the cruel game is never give what we want and need.
erin: they are double minded.
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 11:08pm
ptsd says:
Wow …
that’s a good question…honestly I have been TRIGGERED by many posts that I’ve read….you may even be directing your post at me…
That said, I feel like slamming some posts(not posters) because I think(at the time)WTF…get on with it….but then I realize I can’t judge or move on yet…(I can never judge THEN)
HOW “CAN” WE KNOW THE ENEMY??
IS THE ENEMY OURSELVES?? I AM IN NO WAY BEING FLIP OR TRITE… I TOTALLY GET THE HYPER SENSITIVITY…
REALLY SORRY IF IT’S ME CAUSING IT…
To be sure…I don’t need validation …just want to set your mind at ease if you think I am the enemy…
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 11:17pm
kim frederick says:
No. Ptsd, it’s not you. In fact, I read a post you made a couple days ago, and so related. It was the one about your childhood….about how everywhere you turned, your life was sexualized. I Really related. I was molested by a neighbor when I was five, once, I think, but he continued to terrorize me by threatoning my beloved cats, for at least the next 5 years. I remember being afaid that the sound of the bushhes rubbing up against my bedroom windows was him, trying to get in at night…..
I was about 7 when my mom and dad and me went to visit my Mom’s friend who had just got married, and my Mom’s friend sais her husband was at the schoolyard with a bunch of neighborhood kids, and I could go and have fun with them…Well, he was taking pictures of these kids genitals… and I went back, and very matter of factly told my parents about it! I was kind of confused, but I always wondered if I ruened her marriage.
Then I was in J.C. Penny when I was 12 and some guy had to show me his dick….and then I was 12 at the bowling ally and some guy had to show me his dick, and then I was 22 and some guy who I was dating had to force me….
I was pregnant at 17, and the father of my baby got me on the back of a motor cycle and rode me through a rutted feild to get rid of my child…didn’t allow myself to know it at the time. My daughter is now 33 years old.
I have been damaged! I’m so over sex and love I can’t tell you.
But, there is this part of me that wants to educate young women, as to how they are complicitious with these selfish freaks….for one thing, judging themselves,(or anyother woman, soley and comepletely by the way she looks, ie by calling her a fat ugly pig, etc, etc, etc….the enemy has educated you so well, you turn on your own….
Oh well….I’m powerless…I believe that a power greater than myself will restore me to sanity….
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Monday, 8 March 2010 @ 11:54pm
ptsd says:
HOLY FUCK…YOU ARE NOT POWERLESS!!! WE CAN NOT BELIEVE WE ARE POWERLESS! I COULD TELL YOU MANY MORE STORIES OF MY POWERLESSNESS….I DON’T KNOW THE END RESULT…BUT I DO KNOW WITH CERTAINTY…THE MORE WE SAY IT…THE MORE WE BELIEVE IT AND DETERMINE TO ACT ON THE DETERMINATION…I DON’T KNOW ANYTHING BUT KNOWING THE FACTS AS THEY COME TO MY MIND…AND…HAVING THE SMARTS/STRENGTH/DETERMINATION(BALLS) TO WORK THROUGH IT…I KNOW WE CAN/SHOULD…WHY NOT??? WE ARE ALLOWED TO MAKE MISTAKES….WE DESERVE HAPPINESS(I’M PRESUMING WE ARE DECENT HONEST FOLKS)
BtW I am not over sex…I actually crave it…maybe someone will slam me for that …
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 12:27am
kim frederick says:
ptsd, when I say I’m powerless, it’s a good thing…it’s a real blessing to realize that what other people do, has nothing to do with me….That th only persons actions that have antthing to do with me are mine.
So glad you still feel sexual. I don’t, and, that too is a good thing.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 12:50am
witsend says:
Anyone out there at this late hour that can give me a crash course and information about mixed bi polar episodes?
I have researched some about this online and know a little bit. But I would like a more personal view of someone who experienced living with someone with this? What you saw and experienced personally.
Anyone???
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 12:57am
alohatraveler says:
PTSD,
When we swear at LF, we usually do this: F***. It’s a little nicer.
:O)
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 12:57am
ptsd says:
I want to and have … educated young and old about values….I came to know the “Lord” at a late age…I am truly grateful for that…it was a spiritual revelation and then some…I took my children to Sunday school(out of the f blue.actually it was due to a mentor that is now RIP)(I got fully baptized with all my children–against the hhh’s beliefs) Oh well…too bad (f*ck him)…I hope my kids remember that battle … the one that allowed them to make an educated / spiritual choice…that’s all lost now….never say never huh? How can a Mom give up on her children?? I have for the most part…simply because I’d be gone if I didn’t….IT HURTS…MANY THINGS HURT…FLASHERS OF ALL KINDS BE GONE!!!!!
I’VE HAD THE UNFORTUNATE EXPERIENCE OF A FLASHER TOO. THEY JUST AREN’T RIGHT!!!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 12:59am
alohatraveler says:
witsend… Aloha here. I have never heard that term “mixed biploar episode” I assume it would be rapid cycling between two extremes. Something to put on my reading list.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:03am
witsend says:
Aloha,
As I understand it, it is when depression and manic occur simutaneously.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:10am
ptsd says:
SORRY ALOHA ..I DIDN’T KNOW THE PROTOCOL.. PLEASE ACCEPT ME FOR ME….
WITSEND… I AM SURE WE’VE ALL HAD EXPERIENCE WITH A BI-POLAR PERSONALITY…MAYBE NOT…MY FIRST REAL KNOWLEDGE WAS WITH A PERSON WHO WAS REALLY INTO THE DICTIONARY.. HE MADE ME FEEL SO STUPID….BUT I WAS DETERMINED TO BE MORE EDUCATED.(AGAIN…I HAVE NO REAL FORMAL EDUCATION) AND IN THE END(4-6MONTHS AFTER THE ENCOUNTER) HE F(OH GOD…LET ME GET THIS RIGHT)*CKED THE PERSON OVER THAT HE WAS STAYING WITH.. …mAYBE IT’S TOO BASE FOR SOME HERE….BUT YOU KNOW WHAT??? IT’S A HARSH REALITY FOR MANY…AND THAT ISN’T CALL FOR A SPATH LABEL
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:14am
alohatraveler says:
Kim Frederick,
Triggered can mean many things.
Annoyed?
Upset because something hits too close to home?
I would say participate in the conversations that feel most healing and therapeutic to you. If you feel the life being drained out of your by a certain conversation or thread, it might not be a healing conversation.
That is not to say that we can not vent. Of course we can. The readers are all different stages of venting. They are also at different stages of THE FOG.
We have had many readers here that are in a fire and fire situation… in other words, two abusive personalities together.
In the past, Oxy and I were attacked by the same reader because she did not like my insistence that NO CONTACT was the way and she didn’t like the flying skillet either. And she let off a tirade that quite frankly was very reminiscent of the Bad Man for me… so there is the clue.
Anyway, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. I have not read the whole thread. I just wanted to toss in two cents to your question.
If the conversation gets too nasty, you can always use the “report abusive comment” button.
We do not want LF to be a place of abuse.
Healing is the feeling.
:O)
Aloha
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:16am
alohatraveler says:
witsend… wow…. manic and depressed at the same time. I am trying to picture that. I don’t know about that. Summer reading for sure. Maybe email Dr. Leedom. She always needs a topic.
:O)
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:19am
witsend says:
pstd,
No I am not confusing the two. Bipolar and spath. Two completely different things, I understand this.
However it is also somewhat common for S/P/Ns to also be biplolar. And ADHD as well.
And it is difficult to understand when the combination presents itself sometimes where one ends and the other begins.
And a mixed bipolar episode…..
That alone is hard to understand. And I am trying to gain better understanding of the mixed episode.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:25am
alohatraveler says:
Kim Frederick,
I see a post that is kind of disturbing. Not a healing conversation for you or me…. just carry on with your path.
I have noticed that certain kinds of comments do tend to dry up and go away in due time.
Healing is the feeling….. :O)
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:27am
witsend says:
aloha,
That is why it is so CONFUSING to me. But it is pretty intense to witness.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:28am
ptsd says:
AFTER ALL THE ADVICE…YOU OK??????
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:32am
geminigirl says:
Hi, again everyone. I guess I want to ask this question, re my blogs above,regading my home being trashed and vandalised, and my art studio and paintings destroyed totally by my daughter,[the first time,} and then again by her and her sicko friends,{second time.} All of this took place around 1980 to 83.
What I dont get is that it took a comment from the same sicko friend of my daughter,{they are both now 45-46,}. ie, "We didnt give a shit, did we,D?"to trigger off a HUGE meltdown in me, and it only happened a few weeks ago.
This whole event [or series of events} happened over 30 years ago, and YET when I saw that sick sentence from her friend, G,I was INSTANTLY back in the same place. feeling sick, hyperventilating, angry, scared,fearful, worried about my ex husband athsma attack,[triggered by the vandalism]. Then when I got the angry email from my SIL I felt guilty, ashamed,stupid, as if it was all my fault! same old thing,”You should be over all this by now!’I dont want to hear it!’ get over it already! whats the matterwith you?”And shes won again, Im back to being the wicked witch, and shes the poor
innocent victim of a crazy Mother.Do you all think Im overreacting? Why am I still reacting so strongly to an event that happened 30 years ago? HELP!!! Love, gem,XX
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:32am
witsend says:
ptsd,
If your asking me if I’m ok, I am ok. A little overwhelmed. But what else is new?
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:38am
ptsd says:
Oh DEAR..I THINK I AM ADhD..OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT…I’VE ALWAYS BEEN HYPER…ASK MY MOM…BUT NEVER A SPATH FOR REAL…i CANT BELIEVE IT ANYWAYS…SEEMS LIKE SOME HERE DO…BUT THAT’S OK…WE ALL HAVE OUR COMFORT ZONES….
NOT THE TOPIC AT HAND…I KNOW…I DON’T KNOW BUT IT SEEMS WE CONFUSE THINGS EASILY..ESPECIALLY IN THE BEGINNING..MAYBE ME MORE THAN SOME////MOST??
BI POLAR MEANS TO ME: WHOAA…i THOUGHT I HAD AN ANSWER….BUT i DON’T…i HAVE MET PPL DIAGNOSED WITH IT…BUT I CAN RELATE TO THEM ON SOME LEVEL….SO THAT MAKES ME BIPOLAR???
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:47am
ptsd says:
I WAS ASKING YOU?? DIDN’T MEAN TO IMPLY THAT YOU WERNT….
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:52am
witsend says:
Gem,
We can’t help feeling the way we feel. And thats what a trigger does….Kind of takes us back…. To that same place, and we react with the same feelings, we had originally.
Its impossible to avoid all triggers. Sometimes they just sneak up on us.
But it might help to avoid hearing what your daughters friends have to say. Just don’t put yourself in that position. Avoid these people or avoid FB or wherever you communicated with them or read their communications. Because you know ahead of time this kind of stuff will hurt you and trigger you.
As far as your son in law is concerned I know you communicate with him to keep in touch with your grandkids. Try and not talk to him about your daughter at all. Keeep it all about the kids and how much you care about them. And how much you miss them.
You are NOT overreacting. These people are hurtful to you. Avoid them if at all possible. Do that for yourself. Because you deserve better.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:52am
witsend says:
ptsd,
No being ADHD or being bi polar does NOT mean that you are a spath. ALOT of criteria needs to be met before you can be diagnosed with any one of these. Let alone all three of them.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:00am
ptsd says:
You seem ok to me..
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:10am
ptsd says:
YOU STILL HAVE IT SO TOGETHER WITSEND
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:18am
geminigirl says:
Thank you so much, witty. I know your right, and Inever should have looked up that FB page. Curiosity definitely killed the cat! Its almost like two fairies one sitting on each shoulder. One is saying,”Have NOTHING to do with your daughter. She isa toxic B–ch. she will drag you down .She doesnt givea rats behind about you. She truly hates you. Stay away from her!’ and the other fairy on the opposite shoulder is nagging, me, saying,”Call yourself a Mother? Dont you even CARE where your daughter is living now? If she has a job? If shes eating right? If she can afford the rent? Your her Mother, your supposed to forgive ALL, and love her for ever!”
So, sometimes one fairy wins, and sometimes the other one does.One step forward, ten steps back! Thanks for being there! Hope your doin OK too!love and {{HUGS!!}} Gem.XXX
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:27am
ptsd says:
I appreciate your clarification wits…I still feel like a spath for what? being me and being a target for the ????????????? God can onlly help. He told me once he WAS GOD..”Do you know where your children are??” I know we all have the scary////scarrry lines …
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:27am
shabbychic says:
gem, your question might be another one that would be good to ask Dr. Leedom (the link is listed on the left hand side of the page)… maybe she would post a reply that would benefit all of us. I have heard that “anger is unresolved pain”, when you also mention feelng sick, scared and fearful then I think perhaps there is more needed to heal this experience for YOU, in addition to the No Contact.
The feelings you mention are how I felt after we had a severe earthquake here in Southern California, I know if I ever feel that again I will fly right into complete panic and fear, do you know… I wouldn’t sleep in my bedroom for over a year after that happened, so it’s like… when you walked into your house after they trashed it… it was like an earthquake… like you were hit by a tornado, a war zone… the things they did are deeply disturbing… so when you read that comment on Facebook you ran smack into your PTSD!! You should and can get help for this!! You have suffered 30 years, I don’t know how one goes about releasing this pain, I would be interested in finding out myself! Maybe a therapist who has worked with war veterans? It is a subject I don’t really know anythng about, but it seems to be overwhelming and is making you suffer, maybe more than you realize. Sorry I’m not being helpful, but I don’t like seeing you hurting, and there must be somebody that can help!!!!! xoxoxo
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 3:09am
ErinBrock says:
MamaGem….
I think key word was ‘closure’….we just don’t get it!
I know its different dealing with the issues with my parents vs. the S ex.
It feels more intense of a betrayal in a sense, because it’s family…. (to me)
I don’t know…..
But…..we don’t ever get the closure we are looking for….
So, I suggest….as Chic does…..just go on…..for the G. kids.
Don’t bring it up….don’t look to dig up anything further…you have enough info to KNOW……you need no further confirmations….
Try and get yourself to a place where you no longer speak ‘about’ her to peeps who are either involved in her or know her…..
Have that funeral!
People want to have their own memories and relationship with others…..they don’t ‘jump’ on board….no matter how wicked they have been…..no one sees themselves as that persons (S’s) next victim.
Time wakes some up…and they realize what their dealing with…..time also lulls others back into denial.
Your not crazy…..your processing……your looking to heal….
I’m still proessing how my parents dealt with my brother molesting me…..and that was about 35 years ago…..I shoved it so deep……the way they handled it…..it does surface….and your pain is just coming to a head…..
give yourself a break….don’t be hard on yourself….we live…that’s how we learn…..your learning darling!!!!
Keep a smile on that beautiful face…..
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 4:26am
ErinBrock says:
Wits:
It’s tough……but your tougher….so be gentle to yourself…..and try to find some peace, while your kiddo’s gone……
I’ve had a meltdown with my eldest….just waiting for the ‘countdown’…..he’s still on the fence….for graduation….
But….I just can’t ‘quit’…..just yet…..some days I think he’s killing me….some days I can cope……
try and keep your balance, as best you can…..
Cuddle the pups and be good to yourself…..
Know I think of you!!!
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 4:29am
ErinBrock says:
Kim:
I think, as Aloha has pointed out…..we need to filter the postings and tailor them to our situations and what we can relate to…..
You’ve been here long enough to know…..peeps come and peeps go…..so not posting to someone won’t kill anyone…..
We all get enough ‘attention’ on here….as there is alwyas someone to comment or offer support…..
So if someone isn’t of your ‘taste’, or triggers you…..use it as a situation for self restraint……
Being a straight shooter, I have seen posts too that I just want to slap someone upside the head……..but my aproach isn’t always helpful, nor supportive..
I try and bite my tongue…..mostly!
Sometimes I’m not succesful………
It takes an effort to keep quiet……and I don’t do it for them….I do it as an excercise in patience and self control for ME!
I guess it boils down to…….
Sometimes things are just better left unsaid!
Ya know……
LF is such an overall supportive group of real wonderful folks….THAT is the value I want to receive/offer when I come here…..
I wish to support and be supported……
Sometimes (currently), I am overwhelmed in my real life…..and I just can’t support everyone….I find myself feeling bad for not welcoming new peeps or commenting….but I’m not in a place to do it ALL……so I can’t…..I know no one is left alone here……so I have to let go…..and I do….another lesson for me!
Remember, I always say…..there is a lesson in everything……
Just look for the lesson….and not so much in the process….
Way more valuable!
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 4:39am
CAmom says:
Dear Gem and Shabbychic:
I was in both individual & group therapy for trauma survivors and attended a 3 day intensive workshop for trauma survivors. I was diagnosed with PTSD and have been on permanent disability for many years.
A couple of suggestions made by trauma specialist therapists that work for me re: releasing trauma-based anger:
1. get a bunch of ice cubes. stand in front of the shower or bathtub and throw them into the shower or tub while yelling at whoever or whatever you’re angry about. this one is easy and can be done anytime with little clean-up. (it might scare your family or pets though)
2. buy a bunch of cheap drinking glasses from the Salvation Army or yard sale/jumble sale. find a place outdoors where you can safely throw them against the wall, while shouting/yelling at whoever or whatever you’re angry about.
this one is a bit more difficult~~if you have neighbors they might think you’re a bit nuts, and after throwing them (with the satisfying crash as they hit the wall) you have to get the broom and clean up the mess.
I use/used my garage wall, which is set back from the street. the cats hide. the neighbors are used to it …and i rarely need to do it now…though in the beginning i did it many times.
I was a little surprised at how much anger i had inside, and how helpful both of these suggestions were in frreeing up and releasing the anger.
I’d be very interested in anything Dr. Leedom might suggest. My experience with expressing trauma-based anger physically and verbally was cathartic and did help quite a bit.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 4:53am
geminigirl says:
THANK YOU!! SO MUCH!! Chic and Erin!!!
At LAST I feel like someone has listened to me and validated me, and Im NOT crazy.Chic, thats EXACTLY how I felt when I saw that FB comment, I was back there! And Erin, your right too, Ive never ever been able to forget it because I havent learned how to process it and put it behind me. I cant tell you how relieved I am that you DONT think Im crazy !!and “overreacting” as most people who know me prob tthink. Actually almost no-one I know now knows ANYTHING about these events of the past, except my ex, and he has remarried and lives in Northern New South Wales. I wasa FOOL to think that Bitch G would have changed,! Born again christian!My ass!
Now Im ANGRY that they tried ,not only to destroy my home but to destroy my spirit and soul, esp. my sicko daughter. what is WRONG with these sick people? Well we ll know, they are Spaths! Im angry now that shes got away with it, but has she? her life seems to be unravelling fast. No home, no husband,,kids only at weekends,sacked from many good jobs,
fired for embezzlement, on and on and on.
Erin, you are right, we NEVER get closure from them, the only closure is NC for ever.The best and only revenge is to havea new happy life without them in it.So again, THANK YOU you wonderful peeps!! esp. Shabby, Erin, witty , Oxy, and hey, all of you. I love you all!!! MamaGem.XXX
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 5:02am
geminigirl says:
THANKS, also to CA MOM! {I must have posted over you.}
I might try the one with the ice cubes! How are you? Hope your doin good! Love, and Huggles, Mama Gem,XXX
Im SO GLAD of LF and all you great people here.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 5:08am
ErinBrock says:
MamaGem:
XXXXOOOO
Hang in there girl!!! Hang in there!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 5:14am
CAmom says:
Mama gem:
I’m hanging in there, this spath stuff is hard to deal with at times, as all of us here know too well…Those little ice cubes are amazingly helpful~~I have a freezer full of them!
You are soooo NOT CRAZY! Trying to destroy your spirit and soul–now THAT’S CRAZY!
I met a lawyer once who had a lot of money, was pretty rich… He was going through a divorce and had to give his wife a huge amount of money. He told me, ” I don’t know why she’s so angry, all I did was destroy her soul. She’s getting half my money.”
I had no response to that~~it was such an evil attitude. I remember thinking, “WHAT?? JUST HER SOUL? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?”
Stay strong, mama Gem, we love you XXX
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 5:47am
CAmom says:
Erin B,
Sorry you’re going through a bad time now…be good to yourself and maybe throw a few ice cubes if you need to!
Sending hugs and good thoughts~~
CAmom
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 5:51am
geminigirl says:
Chic, Erin , CA Mom,I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! You all SO GET what Im going through! You DONT think Im crazy, and thats a ll that matters!
I rang my REAL daughter this evening, -Roya, and she was so sweet and loving, saying “I love you mama, I kiss you, sleep well, Abbas and I love you so much!’ What balm to my wounded soul! How kind of God to give me a brand new daughter, and a wonderful 6 foot 2 inch son as well! We had a great day last saturday with them, a nice meal, and they took the little dog for a walk, normal family things that weve NEVER ever had with my spath daughters. Im SO grateful to God for them, so is David. He is really blossoming with all the hugs and love.Im looking at the lovely red roses that Roya brought me, and feeling so blessed. And my wonderful LF friends, you are ALL priceless! Roya and Abbas need us too, they miss their family, they have no one over here, we have become their new family.YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!! LOVE YOU ALL!! {{HUGS}}} MamaGem, and thanks again!!!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:04am
ErinBrock says:
Camom:
I think I have been on edge knowing the S ex is ‘local’…..but got wind today…..he won’t be long….if at all.
I got ‘comfy’ knowing he’s across the ocean…..and edgy with the kids….and my eldest struggleing to graduate….if at all…..
None of us need the upset….with a freak show…..
Then……enter the parental units…..I’ve been making decisions on that front too……
Just a busy time….and emotional….hitting at the same time….
One day…..it’ll all be calm, cool and collected……in my life!
I just KNOW IT!!!!
Screw the ice cubes…..I’m throwing the whole damn ICE CHEST!!!
YOU take care……it’s a journey…..FOR SURE!!!
Thanks for your loven sweetie!!!
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:07am
ErinBrock says:
Ya know Gem…..
It’s really heartwarming to read about R&A…..and all your sharing with them/them with you.
You really are blessed to experience the feelings of warmth, normalcy and love in your life!!!
I am so very happy such a wonderful woman has a great husband, whom she loves dearly…..and 2 ’strangers’ that have entered your life in such a positive way and with such love!!!!!
You just never know….where you’ll find love.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:12am
geminigirl says:
Erin, Darling, Im glad that my happiness warms your heart, because YOU warm my heart! You are such a sweetheart, so tough but so vulnerable and honest and real.
I LOVE YOU TOO!! Be happy, its our best revenge on these sad sick creatures, We did our best, now we have to give them to God, because they are WAY too hard for us to deal with. Blessings, sleep well tonight, and know you are loved,that goes for all of you!! {{HUGS}}!! and TOWANDA,!!!-we are getting there!!! MamaGem.XXXThank you again!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:25am
kim frederick says:
Good morning, EB and Aloha. Yes, I woke up this AM regretting my last post. I should have kept my mouth shut, and do apologize…One too many glasses of wine and an old wound I suppose…
I feel strongly, that we as women need to value OURSELVES for more than how we look…comparing oneself to ones rival, based soley on age looks and body type is buying into a psychopathic system that objectifies women….It shows a lot of self contempt, too. Yeah, I’m a bit of a femmenatzie, and I know I am, but One thing I hate is a woman hating woman, and I know that they just don’t know any better, but who’s gonna teach ‘em?
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:40am
knowledgeempowers says:
Ox, Would it be possible to speak to you off the threads? I have a concern, I am hoping you can help.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 8:01am
OxDrover says:
Knowledge, send a request to donna to forward your e mail to me, tell her I said it was okay.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 10:43am
OxDrover says:
Wow, you guys had a great conversation last night and this morning. Good answer to Kim Aloha!
Kim, a year and a half ago I “invented” the cyber skillet and “used it” on Henry for being so down on himself, but the thing is that Henry and I had a “good relationship” here on LF and he was not offended.
Aloha, I don’t think I used the skillet on that girl, (but maybe my memory is faulty) because she was upset with me I think I remember because I told her that she had ACCEPTED the abuse for a long time and she kept screaming that SHE WAS INNOCENT and you and I both tried to get across to her that we were NOT BLAMING HER for the abuse he did, but she was carrying on and the NO CONTACT thing wasn’t to her liking either, she was wanting to get justification for BASHING HIM (with contact)
Many times I have seen what I call GASOLINE and FIRE relationships where BOTH PARTIES are PERSONALITY DISORDERED, and the TIP off to me, seems to be) (either in real life or even here on LF) is that the “victim” (or the one who presents as a victim and wants “sympathy”) doesn’t offer any care toward anyone else, and if you will notice, no matter how badly wounded someone (normal) is when they come here, it is only a few days or a week kbefore THEY are comforting others themselvess, even though they are far from healed, they are reaching out a comforting hand to others.
The pseudo-victim on the other hand is only seeking to GET comfort, never offering any. The Pseudo-victim will also NEVER ADMIT that their own actions, choices, etc. had anything to do with the continued abuse that they suffered, they are all about JUSTIFYING THEMSELVES.
Plus, if you even suggest that their own choices of staying with this abusive person in any way contributed to the ongoing abuse, WOW, do they ever get mad and BECOME ABUSIVE THEMSELVES.
I’ve seen posts here that are just “garbage” as far as I am concerned, and I just don’t usually comment on them.
The “skillet” is used (or “threatened”) more as a JOKING way of saying “hey, get off the pity trip” or “quit bashing yourself” and I try to use it only on people I have a relationship here on LF with and with people who know what it means (you have to be careful with “inside jokes” and make sure the person being joked with is in the know!)
When that pseudo-victim ATTACKED Aloha and me, I was CRUSHED at the time because I did not want to say anything that would offend anyone (I was still pretty new at LF then) and I didn’t want to validate something UNHEALTHY that she was saying, but I didn’tg mean to provoke an outburst and it scared me to death. I even though about not posting here anymore. I took the BLAME for HER outburst on myself, because at the TIME it happened 1) I was still RAW and 2) I was still WALKING ON EGG SHELLS and “offending” anyone was always (I thought) my fault.
I do my best to NOT offend anyone here on LF because healing is the name of the game here, and I NEVER intentionally offend anyone, but I do want to speak the truth, or not speak at all.
Sometimes too, especially when we are RAW, we will “read into” a post something that was NOT want they intended it to be. Or sometimes we type somethin that doesn’t come across like we wishh it could, and there is no voice inflections to know it is a joke, or a smart arse comment, no riased eye brows etc.
And there are things we disagree on. Disagreement is OK. Disagreable-ness isn’t. And in fact 99.9% of the posters here are great folks—but we do have trolls from the P-site (and in case you don’t know, yes, THEY have a site and occasionally come here to pretend to be a victim or just to make nasty comments and as a group we decided to NOT ENGAGE THEM, AND JUST HIT THE REPORT ABUSE BUTTON. Let Donna take care of them. They are just wanting attention and chaos, and if we don’t give it to them, theyy go away and/or donna bans them.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 11:19am
alohatraveler says:
Oxy and LF Friends,
Geminigirl.. nothing keeps us locked in upset and ptsd than having no reasonable closure. About 5 years ago, my Dad started having PTSD episodes and his doctor said it was related to Vietnam. I have also had long delayed reactions to some of the things the Bad Man said to me. When I was with him, dodging bullets (verbal attacks) was part of daily life so it wasn’t until I was faaaaaaarrrrrrr away from him that I had a crying meltdown over one of the cruelest things he ever said to me. Think of it like an “AIRPLANE” movie. So many silly jokes that you start to miss the absurdity of some of them and you don’t laugh anymore.
Oxy,
You have wonderful observations about the victim model in some of our guests. :O) In a way, we have all been selected as good targets for abuse or fraud. So, that said, we are victims.
But the kind of victim we do not want to be is the one that is unable or unwilling to learn about what it was that made us endure and tolerate the intolerable. This is where all my work on ME is done. I accept a certain amount of responsibility. I know we all have different stories but my story is that I realized something was not right about him after the 3rd date and it was sometime in the first 30 days that he had his first inappropriate episode which rapidly progressed to just plain abuse.
My first essay, oh so long ago, was written with a certain reader in mind that no longer posts. She posted over and over long lists of what “he did” but she did not look at what she “did not” do to protect herself and put a stop to it. I will put the link here if anyone wants to go in the WayBackMachine and read some olden days LF posts. HAHA!
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....t-anymore/
About that LF attacker… I had the same reaction. I did not want to post anymore and I felt sick with stress and anxiety for a few days. I remember thinking, “wow, that was a lot like the Bad Man.” And since the Bad Man’s primary mode of attacking me was an email inbox of verbal venom each morning, I shut down really quickly with said reader.
Oxy, I liked what you noted about how most LF readers reach out to others even when they are still limping. So true.. a sign of true empathy which is a sign of true humanity. Beware of those who don’t seem able to shift into another persons shoes from time to time.
Next week, I will be attending a support group for the first time at our local Domestic Violence Shelter. I am kind of excited (and scared). I am doing a paper on this organization for school and I also would like to connect with some people in person who are experiencing abuse.
However, for me the ultimate healing circle is here. I wish I was able to keep up on all your stories as I used to but I need 30 hours a day and 10 days a week right now. In fact, what am I doing now?! I need to be studying! ARGH!
Have a wonderful day LoveFraud Healers!
Healing is the feeling!
Aloha :O)
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 12:49pm
knowledgeempowers says:
Thank you Ox, When I didnt get a response from you this morning I went ahead and emailed Donna.
I was just wanting to clarify with you (since you seem so knowledgable about this site) if that was the appropriate thing to do.
Thanks for responding!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:08pm
alohatraveler says:
One last think Geminigirl,
We will not be able to help all people here. There are people who create drama in their lives by the situations they choose to get into and choose to continue.
You will know them when you see them… or it won’t take you long to figure it out.
I find that we can learn from those people as well. I have noticed that in the real world, I *see* people’s stuff better that I used to. I try to take a fly on the wall approach where before I used to react to everything as if I was the source of people treating me bad…. and I needed to be the source of other people’s healing by pointing out the obvious to them…. such as when someone is addicted to drama.
Now I know that the universe will teach people their lessons. I LOVE to help people who WANT TO GET BETTER. You know who they are…. and whom they are not.
Alright… Aloha… you need to shhhhhhhhhhhh and get back to business.
Bye for now and P.S. I think you all are fabulous amazing peeps!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:12pm
Twice Betrayed says:
You know, you all make a good point on being triggered. I watched Wild Hogs the other night. As you all know, it’s about a group of middle aged guys in midlife crisis. It’s funny and makes some good points, all in jest and lightly. Anyway, when Travolta’s character put on that do-rag, clinched his jaw and rode that cycle……I was instantly triggered…he looked just like my X. I overrode it [pun intended] and did not let my friends know it got me. We had a great time eating snacks and laughing at the film. About three AM [why always 3 in the AM...something about that time...????] I awoke in full throes of a nightmare and you know who was the star?…..yep, my X. Just never know what will ‘trigger’ a flashback. Bleh……
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 1:24pm
silvermoon says:
Aloha -
I loved what you wrote about this being a healing circle- what a wonderful descriptor for what happens here.
I think I will use that nomenclature to describe because blog just does not reflect what is so powerful and moving an experience as what happens here.
I am glad to see the dialog – It helped me understand an intuitive reaction.
I guess our intuition does learn……
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:17pm
robxsykobabe says:
I dont know if its the weather or my PMS thats got me all screwy these past two days. I had a dream of him last night and want to share…
I was waiting at the train station for him to arrive (he often would take the train to my house) but he didnt show up…he just blew me off…which was unlike him. I asked some people if they had seen him and they said, ‘yeah, last night late he was getting on the train to go home’. That hurt me.
The dream took place at my parents home, but in the dream it was HIS home (where his parents live). The dream had minimal words, and I remember him having his back turned to me, but I could see the side of his face. He looked different and the ‘feel’ of the dream was like I was trying to get him to see all the wrongs that happened…and he was just totally non-chalant about it all. Like he had ‘things to do’ and I was kinda holding him back…sorta. His parents had come home and he tried rushing me out of his home and I got the sense that he would be criticized for having me over…but HE asked me to come over…and didnt watn his family to know.
I jusst kept looking at him with a glare and tears in my eyes…so angry at him but wanting so badly for him to act like he cared about how I was affected.
Real life now…I listened to his last phone message he left for me the day our NC began. This was after I had found he stole from me, he denied it, we went on vacation and 5 days later he said to me “it JUST dawed on me that you accused me of stealing from you”…he had called me this day and badgered and demanded that I give him an apology…I didnt…and this was the result…
“Hey, it’s me. Im gonna assume-I hate to assume, but Im gonna assume by your silence and not calling me back and not feeling like, I dont know, like you owe me an explaination for what yousaid, or apolgy for what you said…that we’re not talking right now.
Ill further assume that because you removed my mom as a friend from facebook, on her birthday (he was looking at my profile through his moms…although he told me he DIDNT have an account of his own–he lied, just blocked me), so, ummmmm, I dont know, I guess if you decide tht you want to talk, um, well…actually, what you said, what you did was, it really hurt my feelings. It was incredibly rude and inconsiderate and I feel you owe me an apology and maybe you should think about that cause if you dont then maybe we shouldnt talk and if you do, then maybe you should call and tell me…that your sorry—alright? Goodnight, bye”
And we’ve been NC ever since…kinda sounds like manipulation, doesnt it?
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:38pm
ptsd says:
Where to start? Hello ladies who’ve been there.
My books have arrived! “In Sheep’s Clothing”, “The Gift of Betrayal”, “The Betrayal Bond” and “the sociopath next door”.
I know knowledge is power but at the same time the more I learn about this stuff, the scarier it gets. I keep hearing the words of the last officer I spoke with. “Just be thankful you weren’t hurt.” I understand now, he said this because he was aware of the XS’s violence in his previous relationship.
I read Oxy’s post about the P’s having THEIR OWN SITE! That is just too disturbing. They teach each other how to identify, scam, abuse and destroy people??? And then congratulate each other on their degrees of success? Too Sick to even imagine.
Anyways, read I must. So I am wondering if anyone has a suggestion as to which book I should start with???
I am leaning toward The Betrayal Bond first simply because I feel so betrayed.
Many thanks for some input.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 2:50pm
OxDrover says:
Dear PTSD, I would read either “in sheeps’ clothing” or the “sociopath next door” first, and the other two (either one) next, but then go BACK AND RE-READ each of them again.
There is so much stuff there that it is hard to get it all into your head, so just keep learning. Also read all the archived articles here as well. Some won’t mean as much now as they will later when you go back and re-read them as well. It takes a WHILE to get all this stuff into your head and then you have jto start reconciling your emotions with your head, so it is not going to be EASY I can tell you now, it is a roller coaster ride as you try to cram it all in and process it. Just don’t get in a HURRY, because there are some things that can’t be hurried.
You can’t get a baby in one month by having 9 women get preg, so it does take a certain amount of time! (((hugs)))) and keep on reading!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 3:06pm
ptsd says:
LOL Yer funny!
Thanks Oxy.
Peace and Strength!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 3:16pm
alohatraveler says:
PTSD,
Read Sociopath Next Door first.
The Betrayal Bond is more about how childhood abuse create traumatic bonding patterns.. or something like that.
Is it The Gift of Fear that you have? That’s a good one too.
Happy reading.
And BTW, too much reading can send your mind into a dark place where you start to believe that everyone is a predator of some kind. I went down that road for awhile. Be careful of that.
In the end though, you will learn to read the world and people’s motives much better.
Aloha
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 5:52pm
ptsd says:
Ola! Aloha,
Since I’m not in any hurry to bond with anyone real soon “the betrayal bond” can wait. I am sure it will be enlightening when I do get to it.
I know exactly what you mean by thinking everyone is the bogeyman now. I also need to balance the obsession to read, read, read to understand and find some kind of closure. And the time spent ruminating is very troubling and unproductive. It leaves little time for light and energy to focus on enjoying life.
I am exhausted with it all today. Going home to cuddle of with my new pillows and read some more!
Take good care Aloha and all.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 6:23pm
kim frederick says:
Ptsd, the time is not wasted, it is being used by your process of recovery…very necissary, although, like you said exhausting and draining…not much fun, either. I think hugging your new pillows and taking a deep breath, is a great idea:)
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:35pm