By March 26, 2017 Read More →

Manipulative woman seduces her husband’s best friend, part 2

LETTERS LOGO 2Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following story from a reader whom we’ll call “Kirk.” Read Part 1.

Yesterday my best friend (the one whose wife is disordered), was seriously considering ending our friendship because his wife was torturing him off and on the night before telling him all the intimate details of our sexual affair and several hurtful and very personal comments I supposedly told her about him. These details were unsolicited and unwelcome, but soon he found himself wondering if these awful things she was saying could be true.

I know he was tired after a long day, trying to sleep and perhaps he just didn’t have the strength or the presence of mind to get away from her. Unfortunately, the poison she was injecting directly into his brain and his heart with her words was beginning to take effect. By the next day our usually fun and meaningful instant messages to one another were tainted with his defensive, drama-filled and even hurtful remarks and questions like, “How could you betray me like that?”

I truly believed Tom and I had moved on from this as best as possible, but Mary, Tom’s wife was reopening his scars at every turn and driving a wedge between us again. He was seriously considering either having me move out of their home or just him walking away and leaving the whole mess behind for Mary and me to sort out.

After Mary left for work, I came over to Tom’s house last night to try and repair some of the damage to our relationship. We had a few drinks and we talked for quite a long time. I found all he truly needed was for me to be there for him, tell him to snap out of it and forget all of Mary’s lies and manipulations because that’s what the real problem was. It wasn’t me at all!

I suggested Tom take my bed while I slept on a mat on the floor in my room with the door locked so he could get some sleep, which he did. When Mary got home, she called for Tom through the door to open it so she could tell him something. He didn’t fall for it and he told her to go to bed.

This morning we got up with the alarm, briefly discussed our plans to move forward and I went to take a shower in the master bedroom where Mary was. The hot water heater for the guest room is currently broken so I had no choice.

Mary heard me in the room and called for Tom. I told Mary it was me and she immediately said she had some good news for me. I told her I was running late. I closed the bathroom doors behind me and got into the shower as quickly as I could!
When I got out of the shower, I put on my robe and opened the bathroom doors. Mary was standing there waiting for me, saying she wanted to tell me something. I was immediately incensed to anger! This woman who purposely caused so much devastating mental and emotional distress to my best friend wants to “talk” to me now?? Oh, HELL NO!

I told her to get out of my way. When she didn’t move, I walked around her. She immediately grasped my terry cloth robe by the arm and I tried to pull away from her, but she held on as I went down the hall to the kitchen where Tom was preparing lunches for the kids, himself and me.

“What’s wrong? Why won’t you talk to me??”, she pleaded with me.
“You told him DETAILS?? REALLY?” I sneered viciously as I kept walking trying to pull away from her grasp.
I heard myself say in a low growl to her, “Get the f**k off me! as I tried unsuccessfully to wrench her grasp from my sleeve. I finally wrenched myself away and said “Don’t ever f**king touch me again!!!”
She pleaded with me that she just wanted us to be friends and that she wanted everything to go back to the way it was before all this stuff happened.
I said, “F**K OFF!! Friends?? FRIENDS?? That’ll NEVER HAPPEN!! EVER! You made sure of that, you… (insert several colorful adjectives here) bitch! Don’t ever f**king talk to me again! EVER!” I yelled as I went into my room and locked the door behind me.
She then tried to grill Tom as to what the hell my “problem” was and why was I so mad at her. Tom alluded to the fact that she’s been playing both sides for chumps. When I left, she tried again to say something to me and I reiterated, “Don’t talk to me again. EVER!”
Despite the fact that Mary has an appointment early next week with a counselor, Tom and I are moving forward with plans to have her out of the house very soon, even if Child Protective Services has to get involved. This woman is a heartless, conniving, manipulative MONSTER and she deserves to lose her marriage and her kids for it!

I’m just glad the kids were still asleep when all of this was going down this morning. I didn’t want to traumatize them further with another episode!


23 Comments on "Manipulative woman seduces her husband’s best friend, part 2"

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  1. Jan7 says:

    Slimone, I respectfully disagree with your statements.

    you states: “nearly EVERY male who comes onto LF and tells their story gets questioned about their motivations, as if they might be the ‘real’ psychopath.”

    = Absolutely NOT true. What I witness is ALL responses that are posted are positive towards both men & woman that come to this site to tell their story.

    you state: “in part, to how many women have been abused by men (disordered or not), and the bias we carry in our minds as a result.”

    Or we have educated ourselves enough to see red flags & listen to our guts, even when someone post a story.

  2. slimone says:

    Well Jan I have been here for about 7-8 years, and I have seen this countless times. So you can disagree all you want.

    • AnnettePK says:

      Having different viewpoints is a positive catalyst for discussion leading to growth and learning.

      The account doesn’t sound believable to me. It contains a lot of drama that sounds like fantasy and lacks realistic emotion. I discern Jan7’s, and others’ similar conclusions may be accurate.

      My perception over the last several years is that participants question motives based on the facts, content, context and tone of a post, not based on gender. I perceive that some folks may be seeking to prove a predetermined belief that males are the same as females and are victimized as often and in the same way. There is some empirical evidence that refutes this. More research into the topic would be helpful and interesting.

  3. Sunnygal says:

    I haven’t read this but a male friend sent a joke about a psychopath and it was about a female which is strange since according to Donna 75% are men and I’ve seen higher stats.

    • Redwald says:

      Yes, Sunnygal—and 75% of those with Borderline Personality Disorder are women! BPD is responsible for a lot of abuse too, including physical violence. The notorious Jodi Arias, who (as everybody knows) carried out a brutal and premeditated murder of her boyfriend, was one of those officially diagnosed with BPD.

      Mind you, this is an immensely complicated issue. For one thing, “abuse” and “personality disorders” are separate matters. So it’s not possible to infer accurately how many members of any particular set of people are abusive, in what way, and to what extent, based on estimates of the prevalence of specific personality disorders. Many chronically abusive people don’t fit the standard definition of a Cluster B personality disorder—while on the other hand, there are even a few “prosocial psychopaths,” if guys like James Fallon are to be believed.

      To make matters worse, experts don’t even agree on what constitutes a specific personality disorder, and as a result some people are diagnosed with two or more disorders. If you think I was being skeptical when I said Jodi Arias was “officially” diagnosed with BPD, that’s because I was! I’m not alone in suspecting that many abusive women are tossed into the BPD category due to gender bias, when in reality they’re genuine psychopaths. I think Donna had this same suspicion about Jodi Arias, judging from Arias’s striking emotional coldness. (Donna will correct me if I’m wrong about what she thought.) This was the subject of some blog posts here a few years ago about “experts who get it wrong,” which I personally agreed with. But like many important subjects here, I haven’t found the time to comment on them, even when I ought to do so. Mea culpa!

      The bottom line is that we can not judge “who’s doing what to whom” based on estimates about personality disorders. We must look at reports about actual behavior instead. That’s a whole ‘nother issue in itself. All I’ll say about that for the moment is that for more than one reason, the number of abusive women around, and the numbers of their male victims, have always been are still are being chronically underestimated.

      However, I do have a question for you, Sunnygal. You said:

      I haven’t read this but a male friend sent a joke about a psychopath and it was about a female which is strange since according to Donna 75% are men and I’ve seen higher stats.

      I’m sorry, but I don’t understand why you thought this was “strange.” If it’s true that 75% of psychopaths of men, that means 25% of psychopaths are women. So there are a lot of female psychopaths out there as well. In that case, why shouldn’t your friend send you a joke about a psychopath who happened to be female?

      I’d be interested to hear the joke itself! Hey, don’t keep us in suspense! 😉 A well-known characteristic of psychopaths is that they sometimes commit the most monstrous crimes for the pettiest and most trivial of reasons. That’s because the enormity of the crime—even the risk of being caught or punished for it!–means nothing to a psychopath, unlike the horror most of us feel when we hear of the crime itself. The classic example is the tale of the psychopath who murdered her sister because… well, I hope you know that one! Fictional as it is, it does reflect reality.

      What I suspect is that the psychopath in this joke just “had” to be female, because her motive for doing something dreadful was driven solely by some pettiness of female spite, completely out of proportion to what she did. Like killing another woman out of spite because she wore the same dress at some social function—and looked better in it! 🙂

      In other words, the joke might be funnier simply because the psychopath in question was female, and her motive for doing whatever she did was so exceptionally trivial!

      Whatever it was, here’s the question I don’t understand, Sunnygal. Even if only 25% of psychopaths are female, why is it “strange” to make a joke about a female psychopath?

      How many females are psychopathic? Not many—but they exist, nevertheless. How many males are psychopathic? Not too many of those either, thank goodness! But they still exist, and they’re dangerous, otherwise we wouldn’t be talking about them here. So the same is true for the females.

      Putting this the other way round, how many psychopaths are male? Quite a lot, it seems. How many psychopaths are female? Even if there aren’t as many, it’s still a number to be worth worrying about! (Especially when we add in all the other categories of female abusers!) So why is it strange to make jokes about them?

      To look at this from another perspective, how many Irishmen are homosexual? How many Scotsmen? Only a tiny minority, about 2 percent, the same as in any other nation. Most Irish and Scots people are “straight,” just like anybody else. There are plenty of stereotypes of Irishmen, and of Scotsmen (as “stingy and tight with money,” for instance)—but “gay” is not one of them.

      In spite of that, we all know that gay Scotsmen and Irishmen exist, and must exist (don’t let’s forget Oscar Wilde, for instance, that icon of the “Naughty Nineties.”) So inevitably there are jokes about them going way back, like these:

      Hey, didja hear about the two Irish queers? Michael Fitzpatrick and Patrick Fitzmichael!

      Hey, didja hear about the two Scottish queers? Ben Doon and Phil McCavity!

      In other words, there are jokes (based in this instance on the linguistic structure of names) about these categories of people, even if the people concerned are a minority within a minority. Some humor-impaired people, or those afflicted by excessive “sensitivity,” may scream that they’re “offended” by jokes like these, but nobody thinks them “strange.” So even if there’s only one woman psychopath to every three men, why would anyone think it “strange” to make a joke about these female psychopaths?

      • Sunnygal says:

        Redwald. The joke was a woman was at her mother’s funeral and fell madly in love with a man there but didn’t get his number so she killed her sister. The question is why did she kill her sister? If you think like a psychopath, she killed her so the guy would come to the funeral and she could get his number. If you don’t you are O.K.

        The only thing I’ve read about BPD is men in New York state which has at fault divorce, get their wives falsely diagnosed with BPD so they blame the wife and don’t have to pay alimony. That happened in a well known divorce. CA has no fault divorce which is very different.

      • AnnettePK says:

        Women victimized by a psychopath often exhibit symptoms of the abuse which mimic borderline personality disorder. Victims have been misdiagnosed with BPD.

  4. Redwald says:

    Jan, I must point out that several of these assumptions about Kirk are plainly incorrect. For clarity, I’ll enumerate them here.

    1. Contrary to what happens more often in divorce, this account indicates that it’s not Kirk’s wife who has filed for divorce!

    Kirk doesn’t tell us whether or not a divorce petition has been filed at all! However, his own words are: “In late January, I started a separation process from my wife of 7 years…” So if anyone has filed, that suggests it’s Kirk who did so, or anyway that it’s Kirk who wants the divorce.

    We don’t know why they’re separating, and have little basis for speculation—except that Kirk was obviously not escaping his marriage to take up with another woman. Maybe he and his wife were never really suited and got bored with one another, or just “didn’t get on.” Maybe she got the infamous “seven year itch” and started cuckolding him. The decision to divorce may very well be mutual, as it often is. Who knows? All we know about his wife is that according to Kirk, she’s “not a good nurturer.”

    Of course, what Kirk is “initiating” may only be the logistical, not the legal aspects of separation. However, there’s no doubt about the second point:

    2. Kirk’s wife emphatically did not “kick him out of the house”! Leaving was his own choice!

    This is crystal clear. Not only did Kirk say I started a separation process… where I’ve moved…” but following his surgery in February he said I elected [to] spend some of my recovery time at Tom’s house because my wife is not a good nurturer but Tom is a terrific one…”

    Clearly then, Kirk could have stayed at his matrimonial residence had he chosen to do so. Nobody “kicked him out of the house.”

    Furthermore, it was a “house” that didn’t even exist!

    3. Kirk and his wife didn’t even live in a “house”! They lived in an apartment! (Yes, this is relevant!)

    Kirk wrote: “In late January, I started a separation process… where I’ve moved the majority of my personal possessions and my home office (for a part time business I run from our apartment) into the guest room of the house of my best friend…”

    It’s Tom who has the “house.” Kirk and his wife only had an apartment!

    And if anyone says that’s “nitpicking” or “irrelevant,” no, it isn’t! It has every relevance to Kirk’s probable reasons for moving out!

    If Kirk and his wife did have a house, they’d have much more space! But most “apartments” have two bedrooms at most. Many have only one, while some are only studios. Now if a couple are getting along just fine, they may be perfectly happy together in a little studio—as my wife and I were for the first couple of years before we bought our first house. But if a couple are at odds with one another, headed for Splitsville, they need space! They want to get away from one another! They don’t want to squabble over who gets the one bathroom first in the morning, or keep bumping into one another in the tiny kitchenette. They want separate bedrooms, and if one of them needs a home office as well, that means more space. If they have a moderate size house, then they may reach a tolerable modus vivendi for a time where they can both avoid one another. In contrast, being compressed into a mere “apartment” makes life that much more stressful for both—and desirable that at least one of the two should move out.

    So why was it Kirk who moved out? Not because his wife “kicked” him out, even if she “isn’t very nurturing.” Maybe because his wife had more “stuff” to move than he did. Maybe because his friend Tom invited him to move in, and his wife had no such options. Maybe because the apartment was in his wife’s name. Maybe because his wife is a pain in the butt and he couldn’t stand her any longer. Maybe because he’s just a “nice guy” who wanted to make it easy on his wife. Who knows? All I can conclude is that none of this necessarily reflects badly on Kirk!

    Furthermore, the fact that Kirk and his wife lived in an “apartment,” not a “house,” after seven years of marriage suggests that money might have been tight. They apparently hadn’t chosen to purchase any real estate. (Most apartments are rentals. When people buy an “apartment,” they tend to call it a “condo” instead. A rose by any other name…! 🙂 ) Shortage of cash while struggling to build a viable home business could help to explain why Kirk found it necessary to move in with a friend.

    Also, shortage of money, and conflicts over money, are a prime cause of divorce. Yet they don’t necessarily indicate whose “fault” the divorce is—only that it’s harder for a couple to stay married when money is tight.

    As for other matters, while the following is matter of opinion, I can’t for the life of me see how Kirk stands to gain anything from getting Mary out of Tom’s house. It’s not Kirk’s house. He has no financial interest in it. He’s not having a homosexual affair with Tom, or planning on moving in permanently.

    I stand by my statement that when someone has “done wrong,” perhaps against their better judgment—such as by succumbing to the temptation of a sexual liaison that could hurt someone they care about—the last thing they should want to do is to risk causing further hurt to that person! Kirk was willing to keep his indiscretion with Mary a secret to avoid hurting Tom. Why would Mary want to hurt her husband by revealing it—and later to reopen the wound by flaunting the details of it in her husband’s face?

    The psychodynamics of this affair are a whole issue in itself, and I think it displays an aspect of personality disorders that has not been adequately explored here. Briefly, I believe Mary was motivated among other things by the desire to create drama around her. When Kirk moved in, she seized the opportunity to do that with both hands. If there’s a “tornado” in that house, I’d call it “Hurricane Mary”!

    Those are the particular circumstances that apply to Kirk. The general issues regarding divorce as a whole are a different matter. I prefer to make a separate post about those. So for now I’ll only summarize the relevant points here:

    4. The statistic on who files for most divorces is exaggerated. Junk statistics like this are common on the Web, and in the media. In reality 83% of divorces are not filed by women—a five to one ratio. The true ratio is close to two to one: a huge difference.

    5. Although this remains an imbalance, there are reasons for it that still do not justify blaming most divorces on men.

    6. Even if it did mean a majority of divorces were “men’s fault,” mere statistical differences would still not be an excuse for jumping to conclusions about any particular individual such as Kirk. That’s “prejudice,” pure and simple.

  5. AnnettePK says:

    It may be helpful to recognize that it’s likely that folks will draw a variety of conclusions from a few paragraphs written by only one person involved in a situation. Consider respecting and accepting other people’s viewpoint, rather than telling others their viewpoints are ‘wrong.’ Without a lot more information, it’s just not possible to come to an accurate judgement.

    Those who are having strong and apparently angry and somewhat aggressive reactions to others’ posts might consider what aspects of their own experience may be unresolved and underlie their strong reaction.

  6. kalina says:

    Recently my sister shared with me that she and her 45 year old daughter were not speaking. For the past 6 months they have gone “no contact”. While my sister and I have been on very close terms almost all our lives, I have experienced something that shattered my faith in our relationship. When our mother passed away, my sister managed to delegate to herself a greater share of our mother’s estate. She did use manipulation to convince our mother that an unequal distribution was more “practical”. At first, I really was unconcerned. I always loved my sister and was devoted to her best interests. Only now, three years after my Mom’s death, do I recall her callousness in disregarding my interests. I disregarded my own interests as well. It was such an emotional time and the thought of arguing about money or materialistic things, like jewelry or furniture, was beneath me. I always said, “Whatever you want, is fine with me”.
    Since my sister and her daughter are not on speaking terms, and my sister asked me for advice, I have been tempted to share with her my hurt over our mom’s estate. Her daughter claims that her mother lacks compassion and is unable to empathize with her concerns.
    My instinct is to say nothing about my mom’s estate and the manner in which she may have betrayed my interests. My thought is that, my sister firmly believes she is almost “perfect” in the area of compassion. An ultra-religious and piuss woman. I do not want to shatter her self-image and so I just remain on neutral ground. I am still hurt over the realization that I was overlooked, but see no reason to educate my sister regarding her obsession with money. She simply discounted me altogether and this has made me not want to remain on intimate terms with her. Am I being wise in my assessment of my relationship with my sister?
    Thank you, Kalina

  7. slimone says:


    That is a tough call. There are levels of narcissism, and sometimes we just have to approach a situation by asking ourselves a few clarifying questions.

    In your case, maybe consider the following:

    Do you want a more intimate relationship with your sister?
    Do you think she is capable of insight and change around your issue with her?
    What would your real gain be from confronting her, and is that gain worth the risk of more conflict?

    My mother is a manipulative, childish, and narcissistic personality. She is not ‘off the charts’, but is annoying, small minded, boring, and isn’t capable of much change or insight. I can be around her, and can manage her pretty well. She is not a predator. Just really self absorbed, shallow, money hungry, status conscious, and ‘static’.

    I don’t try and connect with her, ever, around sensitive issues, hurts, or concerns. It never works out. She plays lip service, and then play acts like she understands and has made changes. But just goes right back to her old crap (which is mostly taking everything out on my step father, by nagging him to DEATH).

    Hope this helps some,

  8. kalina says:

    Thank you for your post slimone. Yes, my relationship deserves a second perspective and if the situation involved something other than money and someone other than my mother, perhaps I would risk telling my sister that I felt betrayed. However, when I shared with her that our mother was emotionally severely abusive, she replied, “Well then I had a mother and you did not”. it was at that moment my attachment to my sister was completely severed. She was inclined to give me permission not to love our mother and then the conversation abruptly ended. I never said I did not love my mother. I only said that she was a chronic abuser. To this day I have an attachment, of sorts, to my mother’s memory. I wish I could say that I really miss her, but ambivalence is part of my current mental state. I am beginning to feel less and less ambivalent as I have come to believe that my sister and our mother shared something of a symbiotic connection. I really don’t believe my mother was capable of intimacy. Therefore, when my sister uses the term “intimate” to describe her relationship, I feel unsettled. Now I am convinced that the intimate relationship that I thought I had with my sister was more of a figment of my imagination than anything else. I believe in self reflection and therefore I am sharing my thoughts with you. I simply want to be honest with myself. I believe this means merely facing the reality of the situation without needing to change anything or anyone.

  9. slimone says:


    You sound wise about your mother and sister. I understand. My mother and I have no real connection, and that is not a judgment or criticism on my part, just a simple fact. So, I understand about being honest with yourself and facing reality.

    I pined for my mother through my 20’s, and then in my 30’s something shifted and I went no contact. Then in my 40’s, after several battles with some personality disordered people, I understood my mother much better. Now there is no real pain or frustration. Just LOTS of neutral feelings, and choices I make based on what I know.